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1 teacher remark4 more comments4Candace JaniaLu Lu tongNewDec 31, 20203ReactI can't help but notice that Lu Lu tong looks like the COVID-19 virus. According to the doctrine of signatures, like treats like.Lu Lu Tong’s primary function is that of moving blood and clearing stasis. Its slightly reddish color belies the fact that it has anaffinity for the blood. It’s shape echoes the fact that it opens up the channels. I can visualize this herb clearing stasis out of thevessels with its pointy hard edges removing clotted tissue. It is also noted that Lu Lu tong can clear wind-damp, which can helpwith allergies and even more notable, decrease in taste and smell. Sound familiar?According to many case reports, blood clots are creating a much more dire outcome for severe cases of those battling COVID-19.Could the addition of Lu Lu tong help our patient outcomes? Can we use modern technologies like microscopy to think of new andinnovative ways to use herbs?It is imperative that we ALWAYS treat the pattern/stage, not the disease. I am NOT advocating the use of Lu Lu Tong blindlybecause the patient has COVID-19. If we were to give a patient a particular formula (say Xiao Xian Xiong tang) but also see that thepatient also has an element of blood stasis that needs to be addressed, perhaps the addition of lu lu tong would be something toconsider over other herbs in that category. It would be especially true if that patient also had wind damp signs, edema, or lack oftaste/smell associated with wind damp.On another non-TEAM note, they make Tamiflu from the lu lu tong seed pods (shikimic acid) - interesting, right?Would love people's thoughts about this! ReplySuzanne ConnoleNewDec 31, 2020ReactInteresting observation! sure, I think it would help. When i think about phlegm and blood stasis in the "tubes of the lungs"preventing oxygen uptake, it seems this would work. In my notes I have written "opens tubes ( i think I meant fallopian here),removes blockages, opens channels, and also opens sinuses in severe deep source congestion." All those things could apply ifthere were signs of blood and phlegm stasis in the lungs as well! Now I want a patient to try it out on. ReplySarah RivkinNewJan 03, 2021ReactIs lu lu tong a classical herb? I don't see it listed in the Shen Nong Bencao Jing or the Shanghan Lun. Maybe that explains why it'snot used in these formula that are becoming common in the treatment of COVID? Does anyone know when it entered the MateriaMedica? @Eran Even @Sharon WeizenbaumEran Even,Sharon Weizenbaum
3 more comments3Caroline RadiceYi Yi Ren and GlutenNewDec 31, 2020ReactAn ongoing question for me: does Yi Yi Ren have gluten? I have used it in patients who are gluten sensitive who have had areaction and others who have not. Job's tears is a type of millet so should not, therefore is cross contamination the issue here? I'mthinking of a patient who had horrific vulvovaginitis flares if she had any gluten and was tentative about using in her formula, butit muscle tested well at her Chiropractor's (however you may feel about that) so she was willing to try and had no problems. YetI've had other patients who have gut reactions to gluten not do well with this herb. Not sure if it is because it is usually used inhigh doses, but the reactions are pretty immediate in these cases. Anyone else have thoughts or experiences to share on this? ReplyCandace JaniaNewDec 31, 2020ReactInteresting- I always thought yi yi ren was pearl barley, which has about 5-8% gluten in it (according to Healthline). I guess thequestion is how much gluten is in the actual decoction of it? Because they aren't consuming it per se, they are just consuming thewater it was cooked in. So I'm guessing a certain percentage does get into the decoction and it depends on how sensitive thepatient is. I have used it in gluten sensitive patients with no problems but avoid it altogether in cases of Celiac and severesensitivities. ReplyMargaret SikowitzNewDec 31, 2020ReactAgree w/Candace - and yet, Caroline, way back in the day did you even ask this question when prescribing yi yi ren? And how didpatients do with it then? I don't doubt that Celiac is very real (we know that it is), but I wonder if there was something then to howit was grown that made (even undiagnosed) patients less reactive to it before diagnosis was as common as it is now?Sarah Rivkinissue with gan caoNewDec 30, 2020ReactHas anyone else seen gan cao (in small amounts) spike blood sugar? I have a patient who is probably pre-diabetic and is intobiohacking (so she checks her glucose a lot) and she can't seem to take it. She does fine with herbs in general, and I've just beenomitting it. ReplySuzanne ConnoleNewDec 30, 2020ReactInteresting question. Is it happening with gan cao in a formula or alone? Honey-fired or fresh? When I think about gan cao formyself, a watery/squishy body type, it tends to make me feel nauseated and bloated. I can really only tolerate it in a very lowenvoy type dose. I'm curious if she has a similar body type and that might explain the blood sugar spike. Does she feel anythingwhen she takes it or is it just something she monitors every time she ingests something?Margaret SikowitzNewDec 31, 2020ReactSuzanne - I love (and relate to!) watery/squishy type. I too generally only use as envoy. Sarah, wonder if she is so sensitive that anydose at all triggers this response? I know for my patients with high blood pressure, they see this on the label and have concernsbut they we discuss how it is deglyclicerized to address this very issue.
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1 teacher remark11 more comments11Brigette Gouletlearning through cases with Sarah RivkinFeb 06, 2021ReactWow Sarah! Thanks for doing this. I was unable to watch it live, but just watched it on the recording. I loved how you started thehistorical context of case studies. It made so much sense to see the evolution of case studies. They are so useful as a learning tool.It brings the treatment to life. A good case study helps you see the person being treated as well as the clinical thought of thepractitioner. It often puts a face and a name to a condition or problem.30 years ago my good friend was studying anthropology and for her master's thesis she did a case study of an individual person inthe context of her life and her history. She had to argue for the validity of this research in order to pass. At the time that struck meas odd and still does. Cases make us think in a different way than simply digesting some sort of research with aggregate data.Thank you for inspiring me to look more to case studies. ReplyYour Friendly Admin NewFeb 08, 2021React@Brigette Goulet In case Sarah doesn't see this post, feel free to use "@" to tag her so that she is notified about your feedback.Brigette GouletReplyBrigette GouletNewFeb 08, 2021React@Sarah Rivkin Tagging you to see previous post, which I did not do initially.Sarah RivkinSharon Weizenbaum Huang Huang's Response about Xi XinFeb 06, 20215ReactHi all, I wrote to Dr. Huang and got a reply. Note that White Pine, in conjunction with the Shen Nong Society has invited Dr. Huangto come teach in the Spring of 2022, which he has enthusiastically accepted. Note also that my Chinese name is Xuelian Xuelian hello!
4 earlier comments 3 teacher remarks1 reply1 reply 1I really miss you all. If it can work, coming to stay at your farm next year is a wonderful plan. I so look forward to it!In regard to the practical application of Xi Xin, I am relatively circumspect. In the past, I did not know about the issue with Ma Dou Ling(AA) or any issue with it leading to kidney failure or liver damage. I only considered the inappropriate application of Xi Xin for whichpatients can get palpitations, dry mouth or insomnia type symptoms. With this in mind, I am rigorous in grasping the appropriate bodysigns such as wet tongue moss, excessive water in the mouth, deep this pulse and severe body pain. When the patient presents with thesesigns and symptoms, I use a formula with Xi Xin. It should not be given if one is in doubt. Xi Xin is a good tasting ancient herbal substance.Historical records show that it has been used by Chinese people for several thousand years. One cannot negate the value of this herb onthe basis of modern laboratory research. However, we should begin with careful consideration. When I use Xi Xin, I place importance onthe following points:I hope the pandemic situation will end soon and that the previous exchanges between China and the US can be renewed.Huang Huang, 2021 2 51. Combining medicinals: Generally the original formulas combine medicinals as in Ma Huang Fu Zi Xi Xin Tang and Dang Gui Si Ni Tang.2. Xi Xin is almost never used in a pill or powder form and is only cooked in a decoction. Furthermore it should be boiled without a cover on the pot. This willallow the volatile oils of Xi Xin to evaporate3. Do not use the leaves or seeds of the Xi Xin. Only use the root. ReplySharon Weizenbaum Feb 06, 2021ReactOh that's okay! I realized after asking you that it was silly as I could just ask him myself! He never minds questions in English and Inever mind responses in Chinese. He is so generous. What do you think @Eran Even about his response?Eran Even ReplyYanaNewFeb 27, 2021ReactSorry, I might have missed it, but what part does Dr Huang Huang use? The herb or the herb+root?I'm coming here also to ask the question about Xi Xin after watching the video with Andrew Ellis. He recommends either tinydosages or even better, not using it at all. And this confuses me when I her Dr Huang using 3-9 g with no problemCandace JaniaIndividual herb cooking sheetNewFeb 02, 2021ReactDoes anyone have a comprehensive sheet that details cooking instructions for individual herbs? For instance sha ren is added last,mu li is pre-cooked, zhi zi is crushed, Hong hua wrapped etc. I do know most but sometimes I have to pause and think about lesserknown herbs and it would be easier if I had a cheat sheet in the pharmacy. We had one at PCOM eons ago and I have searched forone but can’t find anything. Thanks in advance!Emily Rieffel NewFeb 04, 2021ReactDagmar Ehling's book, "The Chinese Herbalist's Handbook" has a handy reference chart section for individual herb preparation!
7 more comments7 ReplyJPEG | 95.5 KIMG_1280JPEG | 117.5 KIMG_1279 ReplyCandace JaniaNewFeb 04, 2021ReactHow great! I have that book and never knew it was in there. Thank you!!3 teacher remarks10 replies 10Marina DanilovaGranules or powders vs. raw herbsNewFeb 02, 2021ReactHi wonderful colleagues,I have only been using raw herbs in my practice. I'd like to understand pros and cons of using granules or powders in comparison.Thank you in advance for sharing your experiences,Marina ReplySharon Weizenbaum NewFeb 02, 20211ReactHi Marina! And thanks for your question.I have used granules about half and half with raw over the years. I am on sabbatical now but my plan is to discontinue to rely ongranules as much as possible when I return. My plan is to move to ground raw herbs. With the help of a good friend, Eran Even, Iwant to move to a thermos method with raw herbs. A big reason is all the plastic that is wasted with the granules. I hate that! Itfeels like the carbon footprint for using them is simply unethical. Secondly, I think it’s possible that I can do as well with lowerdoses of raw herbs and that the thermos method is very convenient for people. Of course, some herbs need to be pre-cooked. Imay incorporate Fu Zi in granules from springwind or legendary to help people not have to pre-boil. As for minerals and bugs, all“granules” of these are just the ground up item. They are not extracted.As for effectiveness, granules are great.Is that helpful? I would love to hear what others do @Sally Rappeport @Sarah Rivkin @Cara Frank @Caroline Radice @Eran EvenCara Frank,Sarah Rivkin,Sally,Caroline Radice,Eran Even
25 more comments25ReplyCara FrankNewFeb 02, 2021ReactOh geez- so much to say about this one. I only have a few minutes before my next telehealth. Ground herbs/ thermos method isnice in theory, however, it's quite a lot of extra work. We grind herbs a lot here and this year I bought a fancy one with a hopper sowe could do larger quantities. Because the herbs are powdered you'd also need to consider packaging. For our granules, we usere-sealable craft bags. That could be a good solution for you @Sharon Weizenbaum.but, when giving raw herb formulas, I always use the big bag method: so makes enough for a week. There's way more compliancethat way. They can be cooked in an instant pot or slow cooker. Let me know if you need cooking directions. I can share them.Globally, granules are the most popular delivery method. We use treasure of the east, which is legendary's source as well. I lovethe brand and I love the company and we've developed a mutually supportive relationship. And the herbs are properly pao-zhi'd. Ilike using them with patients who are traveling. And also for those that are sensitive to alcohol. They are very effective. However,they are compromised in that they don't taste as vibrant. Also, with treasure of the east, they don't really dissolve easily, so youkind of have to swirl them in the glass.For a personal pharmacy, I'd say that granules are by far the most practical, money-wise, space-wise. Raw herb dispensaries arepassion projects. I mean that in a good way- we all share this passion.Mostly, I use our 1:1 liquid concentrates. They're low alcohol and they feel really alive. Flavor is function- so this really matters tome. I get amazing results- nearly as close as raw. Easy for little ones and people who can't swallow pills. However, it's difficult tomaintain a very large inventory because they have an expiry date, so we are limited to herbs/formulas where we can turn themover.Sharon WeizenbaumAnn ClearySo Many Thoughts (and questions) on Xi XinJan 23, 2021 | EditedReactWhat a great combination of talks and material. And coincidentally well timed, as just last week I happened to open the Jing GuiYao Lue to Chapter 12 and thought wow, there is a lot of useful information here but I don't know how to organize it yet.Andy's talk was great: very informative and very nerve wracking as I had just that morning given ma huang xi xin fu zi tang to apatient. I started watching the video and in just the first few minutes he mentioned how he would hopefully, by the end, convinceus not to use it at all. I wasn't sure if I should text my patient and tell her to toss everything but decided to pause until I could see itall, which I had to do over a few sessions over a few days. It led to some internet research, as he suggested. Some things I foundvery interesting is that, as he said, AA-provoked nephropathy does not show up until months after ingestion. The time from use toinduction of disease is related to amount taken and duration of treatment. Talking about AA in general: "...[there is] both a directcytotoxicity and a more chronic change involving modification of DNA. The presence of AA DNA adducts in renal tissue (!!) and theassociation with late development of uroepithelial tumors in patients with CHN support this view." There was also an article givingoverall very low mcg/g amounts in various xi xin varieties, but there was one variety that had amounts hundreds of times higher,equivalent to the mid range of AA found in guan fang ji. There were arguments against using any herb with AA, all of theseseemingly from a western medical analysis of herbs with AA and not distinguishing between parts used or herbs used, andarguments for using xi xin but with less sound arguments such as there is a much higher risk to benefits tolerance allowed forWestern medicine. While this may be true, I don't want to risk harm to anyone's kidneys even if the herb may be beneficial tothem. Especially when, as Andy said, I so far have used it to treat low back pain and rhinitis. Who wouldn't rather have an acheyback over dialysis? (Visions of "wash kidney" are still in my head.)With all that said, I could not find anything that very clearly distinguished between what varieties and parts are used by reputablecompanies today to make xi xin. I currently have Sunten granules. Does anyone else use this? And decoction does seem to greatlyreduce an already very low amount. The data on CHN (Chinese herb induced nephropathy) as well as the initially mysteriousBalkan endemic nephropathy all required chronic exposure. (An interesting New Yorker article on BEN I remembered readingAndy Ellis
years ago: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/poisoned-land) So for me, the jury is still out. But I won't beprescribing xi xin until I can get some more conclusive data on how much AA shows up in granules.This brings me to my patient. I would appreciate any insight from senior practitioners. I have been treating this woman forsometime, mostly with acupuncture due to post concussion syndrome due to a car accident two Augusts ago. She still has screen/work induced headaches, but overall has recovered.However, she has a lot of water bloating, worse before her period, and then better after, chronic intermittent low grade nausea,prone to ear infections that respond well to chai ling tang with chai gui zhi tang, the headaches I already mentioned, andpersistent low back pain, periods that are slowly shortening, edematous eyes and ankles, as well as the abdominal puffinessmentioned earlier. Sticky bowel movements, sometimes difficult to start, sometimes soft serve. Her period can be mucusy andblood streaked. 2 telehealth sessions ago she also reported painful nipples leading up to and during her period. Her urine isyellow despite low thirst, so clearly a fluid metabolism issue. She also mentioned how she can feel that her overly taughtabdominal muscles cause the low back pain. (Aha, I thought to myself, clearly still a gzt presentation despite her puffiness.) Hertongue is sometimes dusky, often with a thin greasy yellow coat. Well this seemed like a certain si ni san plus dang gui shao yaosan plus gui zhi to incorporate gzt presentation to me. Because her middle ears were still sl itchy from an ear infection a fewmonths earlier, I also incorporated huang qin to add xcht. So clever, I thought. So certain to work. Indeed, I have been dancingaround wu ling san and dang gui shao yao san type combinations over the past couple of months. There is some improvementbut she is still quite puffy.This week I had watched most of Huang Huang's video on xi xin over breakfast before going into clinic. I see her face on thescreen, still so puffy, and hear again about this low back pain that waxes and wanes between sharp and dull but has not beensolved, especially now that I am not treating her with acupuncture (I am only seeing my most serious patients in person currentlydue to the covid situation here in California.) Her fatigue is better now, but she still trends that way. Her period came an entireweek early, unexpectedly. And I thought to myself, "how have I not seen this before, these puffy eyes, this low back pain, thefatigue, the mildly stuffy nose she mentioned last week and again this week?!" She needed an extra blanket the other night butotherwise does not tend towards hot or cold. Upon closer questioning her urination is less than her liquid intake, so the ze xie andfu ling did not help this. The puffy tongue edges are still there so have not been helped with the fu ling and ze xie. So clearly amhfzxxt pattern. And that's what I prescribed, with zhi gan cao to protect her from an exuberant ma huang or fu zi. I have beenchecking in daily with her, this morning after her 4th dose. She reports her back is improving markedly, increased urination, nasalstuffiness gone, "my belly puffiness was way down, I didn't realize how puffy that had been this week" (from yesterday, and thentoday:) "swelling in my legs is so down -- I didn't even know they were that swollen".Here's where I need help. I still could easily see her pattern the way I saw it last week, as a jueyin taiyin fluid metabolism blooddisharmony pattern because there is still the irregular period, again she had nipple pain (though less) right before her period, andher back pain, though sometimes sharp, is not especially severe. And I can see it as mhxxfzt pattern, which she is clearlyresponding to more. What do I need to ask to be able to clearly know the difference rather than doing this trial and error? Inhindsight, should I have asked her more about sweating? Also, what to make of this liver involvement with what is showing to be ama huang pattern? I am not familiar of formulas that incorporate these two ideas, so it is hard for me to understand.Also, in Andy's @Andy Ellis substitutions, I did not hear anything about substituting xi xin in mhxxfzt. Any ideas on that?And if you open a person's exterior to open their urinary bladder, would it make sense to switch over to fu ling type formula laterif still needed? I know taiyang patterns should resolve quickly, and if using ma huang for pain when there isn't a taiyang pattern,how long could/ should someone be on this type of formula? In general, I have a harder time identifying ma huang patterns thatare pain and not an exterior condition.That's a lot of questions at once and I am pretty sure there is one more I am forgetting. Grateful for any input. :)
1 earlier comment 1 teacher remark2 replies 2A Medical Mystery in the BalkansWhat causes Balkan endemic nephropathy, and why is it so deadly?Source: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/poisoned-land Embedded File.https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/poisoned-land ReplySharon Weizenbaum NewFeb 02, 2021ReactHi Ann, I am not clear on how you diagnosed the MHFZXXT pattern with her? Can you clarify?How old is she? What does she look like? How about sweating? Any tongue picture?As for the Xi Xin, I am also curious what some other classic formula geeks do with this information. It was interesting whensomeone asked about using Xiao Qing Long Tang for a very short time when the Xi Xin had been tested and shown to be AAfree..and Andy still said he wouldn't do it. And here Huang Huang is saying that cooking it takes care of the AA...I wonder @EranEven if we could ask Dr. Huang Huang about this in more detail. Has there been research with his patients? I will write to him andask, or get Eran to. Lots of Jing Fang practitioners use it pretty freely. Sun Ten has a great reputation but I don't know their testingof Xi Xin. For me personally, if I get the documentation from the herb company, I use it.Eran EvenReplyCara FrankNewFeb 04, 2021Reactso- a while ago, I discussed my strategy for playing herbal money-ball on Micheal Max's Everyday acupuncture podcast. It's how toaggregate the effects of the A-team players when you only have the B team. I think you can prob find it still. Also, I'll circle backlater to show a formula as an example
1 more comment11 teacher remark2 replies 21 more comment1Renée KlormanQuestion about an external use of an herb combination Dr. Huang mentioned in the Xi XinlectureNewJan 20, 2021ReactDr. Huang discussed the herb combo Dan Gui, Shao Yao, Gui Zhi, and Xi xin (which is in Dang Gui Si Ni Tang) and its ability toexpand blood vessels, treat pain in the small joints, and cold--subjective and objective. He didn't mention using the formulaexternally, and I'm curious if anyone has prescribed DGSNT or the above herb combination as a hand soak for acute Raynaud'ssymptoms to quickly draw down the pain?ReplySharon Weizenbaum NewJan 21, 2021 | Edited1ReactHi @Renee Klorman , Gosh, I don't know the answer to this. I'll get andy to chime in as he has loads of experience with externalapplications.One thing that I do have experience with is using Hua Jiao, hot pepper, in gloves and socks. That draws blood flow and Yang to theextremities very well and that warmth is what stops the pain. Be careful though. If you recommend someone put it in their socks,tell them to have an extra pair of socks with them in case it gets too hot.Many years ago (I was in my 20's) I was ushering at a Meg Christian (anyone remember her!?) concert in Boston and was living inAllston, about 8 miles away. It was winter and I only had a bicycle. So, I put some cayenne in my socks to help keep my feet warmas I rode along the Charles River esplanade. At the concert my feet began to burn! I was on my feet for a long time with theburning as I ushered. I wished I had a change of socks!Renée Klorman ReplyAndy EllisNewJan 21, 20212ReactI suspect that people have used Dang Gui Si Ni Tang externally for Reynaud's. Nowadays, there are a few herbs that mostpractitioners would add to that such as Tou Gu Cao, Ma Huang, Lao Guan Cao, Mao Dong Qing and various underground parts ofthe aconite plant. Here is an example from a book on external applications:Hui Yang Zhi Tong Fang:Tou Gu Cao, Dang Gui, Chi Shao, Hua Jiao, Su Mu 15g eachTian Nan Xing , Ban Xia (sheng), Cao Wu (Sheng), Chuan Niu Xi, Bai Zhi and Hai Tong Pi 10g each.Use as steam-soak 30 minutes each time 1-2 times per day.Sharon Weizenbaum Dang Gui in the Shen Nong Ben Cao JingJan 19, 2021React
3 earlier comments 2 teacher remarksI have a question about the flavor of Dang Gui.In the SJBCJ that Sabine translated it is listed as sweet and warm. This is consistent with notes I have from Arnaud's class. However,in the Reading of the Devine Farmer's Classic of Materia Medica by Chen Xiuyuan, translated by Corinna Theisinger and edited by ourown Eran Even, the SNBCJ is listed as saying it is also bitter. Chen Xiuyuan, in his commentary, lends great importance to thisaspect of Dang Gui. In F & S, it is listed as being pungent as well as sweet, which is consistent with the Ming Yi Bei Lu.I have two questions:1. Why is there an inconsistency between the copies of the SNBCJ, one saying bitter and the other not? Are there differentversions?2. What part of the Dang Gui was probably used in the Han dynasty?I'm going to get some of the various parts of Dang Gui from the clinic today and simmer it up and taste it myself!Eran Even,Sabine WilmsReplyEran EvenJan 19, 2021ReactSabine and Sharon, you're both so sweet!Thanks for posting the BCGM quote Sabine, I only had a snippet, and did think it was bizarre that no flavor was recorded. Sweetand acrid make perfect sense.And yes, bizarre it's not in the FXJ given how important the herb is - would have been interesting to see where it would have beenplaced.:)ReplySharon Weizenbaum Jan 19, 2021React@Eran Even I think Arnaud puts Dang Gui as a wood herb of the earth class on his "outer circle." I am not sure where this outercircle comes from? Maybe extrapolation? Do you know? I know it's not from the Fu Xing Jue.Eran Even ReplyEran EvenNewJan 19, 2021React@Sharon Weizenbaum I think it’s just his, not sure it comes from anywhere. So I guess he classifies it as acrid then.Sharon WeizenbaumOzben FelekQuestion about Dr. Huang Huang’s comment about using single granules,Jan 16, 2021ReactHi Everybody,
16 earlier comments 11 1 teacher remark1 earlier replyI watched Dr. Huang Huang’s talk about Xi Xin today and I was surprised to hear that he does not think that using single granulesand preparing a formula is effective. He explained using a granule formula and adding like ma huang or fu zi single herb would beok.He further explained that because single herbs are not cooked together and are made in granule form, we won’t be able to get thesynergistic effect. It does make sense but I also remember from multiple herb teachers and practitioners recommending me tohave single granules when I started my practice 5 years ago. I have over 100 single herb granules and some premade formulasfrom Legendary Herbs and limited amount of raw herbs (only 42). When I don't get a good result with giving them granulesprepared with single herbs, my first thought is my diagnosis. Since I only have 5 years of experience, when the formula does notwork, I usually blame my knowledge (or lack of knowledge and experience:) But I wonder if it has anything to do with what Dr. HHis saying about the inefficacy of using single granules.I would like to hear how your clinical experience has been if you are preparing formulas using single herb granules?Thank you! ReplyCandace JaniaJan 19, 2021ReactHi Ozben-My favorite way of dispensing raw herbs is Sharon’s method:1 bag of herbs for 1 week. Write your formula, then multiply numbers by 3 and cook twice. Then the patient portions out 7 days,taking 1/2 portion in am and 1/2 in pm, keeping it in fridge. Hope this makes sense. Although I find that for acute situations, I give1 bag per day if its short term administration.ReplyOzben FelekNewFeb 11, 2021React@Candace JaniaHi Candace, follow up question about cooking 3 bags all at once, how many cups of water do you tell patients to start cooking andwhen they stop cooking, for example 15 cups to 5?How long does it take usually to cook them?Candace JaniaReplyOzben FelekNewFeb 11, 2021ReactI just also noticed that you give the 3 bags but then ask them to cook them twice? Would you be willing to share the instructionsheet that you give it to your patients with me?Amy JennerNewMar 13, 2021ReactI was also concerned about HH's statement that he likes the formulas cooked together. I use granules singly so I can vary theamounts. I have a few base formulas that I use, like GZT, just to save time in mixing as I am a 1 woman show. I'm relieved to hear
Replythat Sharon feels they have worked fine for her all these years. I am growing Ma Huang this year just to see if I can so I can be alittle less anxious about a source. Do any of you have a Taiwan distributor that would ship direct? I stocked up from Jade Mountainbut now that they have disappeared, I don't know what I will do when my limited supply runs out.1 teacher remark1 more comment1Sharon Weizenbaum NewJan 09, 2021ReactI have a question about Gan Li Gen Bai Pi in Ben Tun Tang. What do you substitute for this? I’ve seen Sang Bai Pi used but itdoesn’t seem to me to be the same. This herb is specific for Ben Tun. It is the peel of the plum tree root. It is salty and cold and, according tothe Ming Yi Bei Lu is treats dispersion thirst, heart vexation and it reverses Running Piglet, Ben Tun. It also clears contained heat in wind wood,entering the foot Jueyin liver channel.Does anyone have any experience with this herb or any substitute for it? It seems quite important.Any thoughts?ReplySarah RivkinNewJan 09, 2021ReactI have no answer, but just thinking if I were only looking at the functions and indications I'd assume it was a mineral, and yet it hasthat affinity for wood. Maybe it would take more than one substance to substitute?ReplyEran EvenNewJan 09, 2021ReactHi Sharon, and all, I just sent you an email with my quick answer, but thought I'd share it here as well to open up a dialogue aboutit.I always substitute Sang Bai Pi as I don’t believe Gan Li Gen Bai Pi even exists, but I could be wrong. It’s not in the SNBCJ and there’s not muchabout it. This is what Huang Yuan-Yu has to say about it:"”.Here’s what HYY says about Sang Bai Pi:"."So yeah, it’s kind of a weird substitute. I’ve also read about docs in China subbing with Sang Bai Pi and Zhi Shi, or Sang Bai Pi and Chuan LianZi.At the end of the day, the most common sub is just SBP, but I’m sure something else could also be used that matches the original herb. I didsome research and digging last year on trying to find a substitute for Ze Qi in Ze Qi Tang, and after many hours came to the conclusion thatTing Li Zi is the closest fit (IMO), so I think it would be really fun to try and match up something to Gan Li Gen Bai Pi based on whateverliterature there is out there, use it in clinic, and then report on it.Hope that helps,EranYanaMa HuangNewJan 03, 2021ReactReading the ebook on Xi Xin, on p23 I see the use of Ma Huang Fu Zi XI Xin Tang for a seemingly deficient patient
1 teacher remarkAnd then the same day i see a discussion on FB on Ma Huang, and this comment draws my attention.Ma Huang is a strong herb used primarily to treat excess cold in the exterior; if the patient does not have this pattern, and in particular ifthey instead show signs of interior deficiency, you will almost certainly harm them by prescribing it. There are also certain signs and symptoms that should be treated as red flags that Ma Huang is contradicated. In general if a patient hasa thin, deficient constitution and has any of the following: palpitations, tachycardia or high blood pressure; anxiety; sensitivity tostimulants like coffee; tendency to sweat easily; tendency toward insomnia, then this very likely precludes the use of Ma Huang.So do I understand it well that here the exterior releasing function is combined with the need to vent the 60-120 g of Fu Zi which isacting upon the interior part of the disease? And that if there was no goiter in a patient with this presentation, Ma Huang would becontraindicated? It’s like to “blow the pipes”, where the power of “blowing” is supplied by huge dose of Fu Zi and the “pipe opening”is provided by Ma Huang. ReplySharon Weizenbaum NewJan 09, 2021ReactHi Yana,Thank you for so carefully reading the ebook! Makes me very happy!My sense of this formula as well as Ma Huang Fu Zi Gan Cao Tang, is that the ratio of Fu Zi to Ma Huang is important. Fu Zi is usedto turn the burner under the cooking pot up and Ma Huang's use brings that warmth TO the surface and not OUT of the surface.Of course, if the ratio of Ma Huang was higher or it was used with Gui Zhi as well, it would bring that warmth OUT of the surfaceand, as you say, "blow the pipes." But, in most of these cases, the dosing is carefully considered to bring it right to where it'sneeded and not beyond. I've often used Ma Huang in very deficient people with cold Bi. When it's used in combination with andwith careful dosing, it can warm the surface without causing more deficiency.This is one reason I love reading case studies. They teach us dosing this way.Does this answer your question or help?Caroline RadiceXin Yi Hua Blooming for New YearsNewJan 01, 20212ReactCold and dark New Years Day here in Northern New Jersey (apologies for dark image) but delighted and not a little surprised tosee Xin Yi Hua buds on my neighbor's Magnolia tree on my regular forest walk. While the buds we use as an herb to clear thesinuses often appear in Winter, if too soon they are at risk for frost damage so wondering what is too soon? I fear the warmingclimate may confuse them into opening early as the flower shouldn't open until Spring around these parts. Anyone else seeingthem? Not that I'm cultivating for use from my neighbor's yards but got me concerned about the sustainability of our herbs ingeneral. This is certainly a question for Jean Giblette at High Falls Gardens! (https://highfallsgardens.net/)I was also appreciating the connection Candace made regarding Lu Lu Tong having the signature of Covid (how have I not noticedthis before?) and Xin Yi Hua does have a nose-like signature but more of the fits-up-there variety (convenient if I get a stuffy noseof my walks - just crush and apply?). Will continue to scan my neighborhood for Chinese Herbs daily.Candace Jania,Sally
1 teacher remark1 reply 14 more comments4JPEG | 2 MIMG_0456 ReplyCandace JaniaNewJan 01, 20211ReactI too have a magnolia tree! And the past few years have been rough on my girl- she opens too quickly just to turn brown and dieoff from an untimely frost. Wood ismoving too quickly upward and outward. Thank you for pointing out the shape of Xin yi hua- you are so right that it really is perfectly shaped to stick right up the nose (afterbeing crushed of course!) Brilliant, Caroline!ReplySallyNewJan 01, 2021 | EditedReactI grew up with a magnolia even further south in Maryland. I think they commonly bud over winter although they won't bloom untilearly Spring. The yang is being stored in there!!! Also, not sure if this is a different species from the medicinal one. I do not havethe right resource nearby to check. This one Magnolia officianalis illustrated from the Harvard Flora of China database.http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=250090183does grow in the Eastern US and is used medicinally. I think it is more like Hou pou than Xin yi hua which I believe are differentspecies from one another.JPEG | 379.5 KFOCI-07_Page_068Margaret SikowitzWelcome Moxa InputNewDec 31, 2020React
1 teacher remark1 reply 13 replies 313 more comments13My moxa loving patients cannot get enough of it, and I welcome recommendations on types/brands, esp for direct moxa, which Ialways steered clear of working in office buildings w/poor ventilation (pre Pandemic). Such great ventilation now opens up thisworld for me! And never has the need felt greater, as I'm finding those cold types (esp cold hands and feet folks) are having aharder time warming up? Even in the clinic I find I'm lingering with pole moxa longer than I have in the past. Feels like morestagnation. Are others seeing this, and do you feel this is stagnation based vs. yang deficiency? ReplySharon YeungNewDec 31, 2020ReactThat's a really good question, Margaret. I have a SP qi deficient patient with Crohn's disease whose symptoms are worse withstress and he responds very positively to local moxa treatment on an area of his abdomen where he had had a section of his smallintestine removed. Whenever he is stressed or anxious, he feels bloating locally at this spot as well as occasional diarrhea. Itseems that when the shaoyang pivot is stuck, his middle jiao qi cannot transport and transform so for him it's a combination ofboth stagnation as well as deficiency. On a side note, his mother-in-law is Mexican and when he visits and presents with this pain,she always gives him a warm tortilla to place on his abdomen. Mexican moxa!ReplyCaroline RadiceNewJan 01, 2021 | Edited1ReactMust admit I moved away from using indirect moxa as the smoke makes me sneeze too much and makes the clinic really smelly,and really only dispense to my mommy-to-be Breech patients after short demo. I do, however, use quite a bit of direct althoughtime consuming, really warms people up. Other than in office breech treatments, I most often employ this for my Raynaud'spatients. I think it applies to the deficient and excess types equally well.Also have occasion to use on my teen daughter's toe that was long ago frost bitten and presents as a singular Raynaud's toe -white and painful even in just cooling temps of Fall. This was her toe after a few grains - pink and pain free!JPEG | 640.4 K7D1A96A6-DC94-4E90-BDA0…
Adina KletzelReading the Lines of the SHLNewMar 13, 2021ReactI really enjoyed Sharon Weizenbaum's talk on reading the lines of the SHL.The talk pointed out that the SHL is not like another book where you read it and take what it says at face value. Before being ableto even approach the SHL one must first understand the physiology behind it. One must understand that conformations arecircular motions in our body not locations in our body. Each conformation has a particular movement and direction and the linesof the SHL are about identifying which movement is out of balance and then using the flavors and properties of the herbs to helpreturn this movement to its proper direction.When I first started learning herbs the thought of ever making sense of the SHL was a distant dream but after studying withSharon in the GMP and learning about the physiology of the body according to CHinese medicine this dream of actually being ableto learn the SHL is very slowly becoming a reality.Amy JennerXi Xin talkNewMar 13, 2021ReactI was happy to learn about Ling Gan Wu Wei Jiang Xin Tang. I have been using XQLT in situations of acute allergies and it worksbeautifully. I also have seen a number of middle aged people with aversion to cold and a constant post nasal drip that I came tothe combo of Xi Xin, Gan Jiang and Fu Zi (by my own reasoning of kid yang def with lots of cold fluids) added to different bases thathas worked well. I was interested in his comment that he never uses Pao Jiang and appreciated his practical thinking around thatsomeone is making money on all these variations. It is good to keep in mind.I was on the edge of my seat for the Wu Zhu Yu and then the video ended. I did find it on Vimeo and was glad to have that info too.I use it in wen jing tang all the time but didn't really understand how else it could be used.
1 reply 11 reply 1Tolley SinkFavorite app?NewMar 12, 2021ReactHi! What is your favorite app to reference herbs and formulas? I am thinking about getting the Eastland Herb one but thought I'dcheck the hive mind first :) Thank you!ReplyAdina KletzelMar 13, 2021ReactI use TCM clinic aid and I think it is pretty decent but I would definitely be interested in hearing review about other apps as well. Imostly use the Materia Medica section of the app but it also has sections for acupuncture points and diagnosis (TCM). ReplyRenée KlormanMar 14, 2021 | Edited 2ReactI use the Eastland app and TCM Clinic Aid. My go to for herbs and formulas is the Eastland app and then I use TCM Clinic Aid to dobroad searches. The interface of the Eastland app is user friendly. You can search for things in Chinese, English, and Pin Yin. Myfavorite feature is the smart search. For example, from the home screen if you needed to look up all of the herbs/formulas withBai in the title it's easy to do. The only thing the app doesn't allow you to search is by Indication, Function, etc. That's when I jumpto TCM Clinic Aid and then hop back to Eastland or go to the books.I also use the free "About Herbs" app created by Memorial Sloan Kettering. This is a useful tool to look up drug/herb interactionsthat have been researched. The app has a large repository of Western and Eastern herbs.1 teacher remarkMolly ShapiroQuestion from the Chalky Herb talkNewMar 11, 2021 | EditedReactEvery time I hear you (Sharon) speak about chalky herbs, I feel I understand their usefulness more and more.In regards to substituting Tian Hua Fen for Ban Xia if there is thirst: this substitution feels awkward to me in Wen Jing Tang. To addbitter, cold in place of warm, pungent in a patient I've otherwise diagnosed as cold and deficient feels odd. Also, without the BanXia, there is less acrid flavor to act on the sticky herbs like Mai Dong and Ren Shen, right? Would love to hear how others thinkabout this. ReplySharon Weizenbaum Mar 11, 2021ReactHi Molly, the instruction to remove Ban Xia and add Tian Hua Fen if there is thirst is not given for Wen Jing Tang in the Jingui. Thisis also true for Mai Men Dong Tang. I think, when Ban Xia is in a very moistening formula, especially where there may be lung wilt,the Ban Xia may be more important. At the same time, in clinic I would use Tian Hua Fen instead if there was very stiff muscles andthirst with fluid loss below.
ReplyMolly ShapiroMar 12, 2021ReactI'm glad I asked, and thank you for clarifying. This is a good reminder to myself to keep referring back to the original texts so Idon't have random rules in my head that get applied out of context.AmyLGZGTNewMar 10, 2021ReactAllyson your presentation was wonderful! I really loved your water cycle tie-in. So illustrative for us. And the comparison w/thesimilar formulas. Thank you for putting this together!Allyson Nevard ReplyAllyson NevardMar 10, 2021ReactThank you, Amy!!!Ann ClearyLing Gui Zhu Gan TangNewMar 05, 2021 1ReactI just wanted to say thanks for the lecture. I have been realizing lately that the taiyin conformation was still very fuzzy for me, andthat I didn’t actually understand how it was different from the TCM sp qi xu (loose stool, watery belly, etc.). I remembered thatthere was a “steaming up” but this was fuzzy for me. The image in your lecture of the ground table water being pulled up throughthe roots and above ground parts of the trees to be transpired by the trees into the atmosphere, aided by the yang of the sun, wasvery useful. There is a capillary action like that of the sponge, but also physiological is required. So it is structural and metabolic.Also, the distinction between raising up above the block in a taiyang way vs getting below any cold frozen water block in a taiyinway was very visual and very useful.I thought I was going to prescribe zhen wu tang to a patient yesterday, but upon closer inspection and with your lecture fresh inmy mind, I realized ling gui zhu gan tang was appropriate (with added fu zi). She had a scalloped wet tongue, feels chronically cold(though warmer since treatment) and sometimes get flutters in her throat with stress, along with an empty lower abdomen,chronic low back soreness, and submerged pulses. Too soon to tell how it went but I was able to look for and see the throatflutters and wet tongue as key symptoms in her diagnosis. Thanks. :)Allyson NevardReplyAllyson NevardMar 10, 2021 1ReactThank you, Ann, so much for taking the time to write this. It made my day. I was having a really hard time focusing at the beginningof that talk so am SO glad you were able to find it useful! The best things about these talks are how much I learn by doing it!
1 teacher remarkJoy BlaisHuang Huang's Tian Hua Fen LectureMar 04, 2021ReactIt's interesting to hear that Dr. Huang Huang first thought of Tian Hua Fen as a powder/pollen because of its qualities when he firstencountered it (not knowing that it was a root that had been pulverized). This is easy to understand now that Sharon's teachingabout chalky herbs is firmly established in my mind. It also makes his suggestion of using Tian Hua Fen on the face for acne verylogical. The chalky quality absorbs excess oil and dries the dampness on the surface of the skin. Although he does not specificallysay it, it seems naturally best for treating wet, pustular acne for this reason. ReplySharon Weizenbaum Mar 04, 2021ReactYes! Thanks Joy! His ideas about controlling sugar levels are interesting too aren't they.ReplyJoy BlaisMar 04, 2021 | EditedReactYes! I don’t totally understand how Tian Hua Fen treats high blood sugar in terms of Chinese diagnosis, but it certainly makessense that it treats the thirst aspect of Xiao Ke.John Chen’s Chinese Medical Herbology & Pharmacology has this to say about it:Tian Hua Fen is commonly used in an herbal formula for treatment of diabetes mellitus. However, modern pharmacology confirms notonly that Tian Hua Fen has no antidiabetic effect, but that it may in fact contribute to hyperglycemia. Two explanations have been offeredto clarify this paradox..Diabetes is often diagnosed and treated as Xiao Ke syndrome, though it is not necessarily the same in all aspects. The diagnostic confirmation ofdiabetes mellitus is high blood glucose, while the diagnosis for Xiao Ke is the presence of polyuria, polydipsia, and polyphagia. These are twoseparate diagnoses. While THF does not treat diabetes directly, it addresses Yin xu that is present in both diabetes & Xiao Ke syndrome.The effect of the individual herb is different from that of an herbal formula. THF may not lower blood glucose directly, but contributes to theoverall treatment of diabetes mellitus by relieving the symptoms and complications.Ann ClearyHerb During MensesNewMar 04, 2021ReactReading the other discussions on herb decoction/ delivery methods and dosages and seeing the wide variety in practices hasreminded me of something I have picked up from my teachers and have wanted to ask other more seasoned practitioners about.I have learned to have patients pause their herbs the first three to four days of their period (unless of course I want the herbs tobe doing something very specific to help shed the blood). I don’t remember if it was ever articulated to me why, but myunderstanding is that this is a time to shed, not regenerate, and not a time for the body to reconstruct or do work. This makessense to me and I follow it. Sometimes a patient will forget and then be worried that they have harmed themselves, to which myresponse is that no harm will come, but rather it is just a nice time to stop doing.What do you all do? Thoughts?
1 teacher remark1 reply 1 ReplyCaroline RadiceMar 04, 20211ReactHi Ann: I do often have patients take a 3 day break during period UNLESS (as you point out) we are treating menses pain orbleeding or something else menstrual specific. I don't know a good reason other than its what one of my teachers did for similarreasons as you note, but I don't think its harmful if they take all the way through unless maybe it s a massive tonic formula thatyou don't want to add while shedding. In the same boat with you! ReplySharon Weizenbaum Mar 04, 2021ReactHi Ann,For me there are two things happening during the menses that are important to consider. One is shedding of blood. The other isclosing to start the next cycle. We could say that shedding happens before closing but there is some overlap as well.In a case in which the body is having a hard time shedding, meaning that there is stasis, pre-menstrually and during menses, likeCarolyn said, is an important time to help that. I sometimes use the image of a beach that needs sweeping. The time to do it iswhen the tide is going out. The need for help shedding is very common.In the case in which someone is having difficulty closing, during the menses is also an important time to treat. This may beexcessive or long menstruation. If someone has heavy menses or metrorrhagia due to any kind of deficiency, one must treatduring the bleeding time.If there is a strong menstrual excess stasis, I will often have the woman take the herbs until the stasis signs disperse, or the mainflow is clearly open. Then stop for the rest of the bleeding time.In cases in which the menses are normal so that we are not treating any menstrual disorder, we can still use these principles to aidour work. Premenstrual time and during menses can be a good time to help purge any excess downward. After the menses areflowing, in cases of deficiency, this is a great time to supplement.To me, the idea of giving the body a break to do what it wants to do is nice, but it's also so useful to use the woman's natural tidesto support your work. I would suggest considering the energetics of each woman separately and not going by a rule like that.Sarah GambleCovid signs and symptoms: then versus now, and a happy discovery with Ban Xia Xie Xin TangNewFeb 21, 2021ReactWhat is everyone seeing in terms of lingering Covid signs? How does what you’re seeing now compare with earlier earlystages of the pandemic?Based on what I’m seeing in my practice’s population, there seem to be some consistent differences, and I will take that as goodnews. Perhaps due to better routines around masking, isolating, quarantining, I am finding much quicker progression through thesets of symptoms.Ban Xin Xie Xin Tang: My happy surprise was successfully applying BXXXT for a patient’s Covid headache. He is a 58-year-old male,infected during the first peak, who had contracted the virus from his elderly mother while he was managing her end-of-life care.He had a persistent almost unrelenting painful headache from base of occiput to his frontal bone and into the eye sockets, with anoverall head “fuzziness.” Additionally, he had pain wrapped from T11/12 to the front R17-12. His tongue had white thick coat, withtongue body dusky to purple.Last time: fever, cough, SOB, loss of taste and smell that might last for months, persistent, headaches, profound long-term exhaustion and heavylegs that linger longerThis time: often no fever, persistent dry unproductive cough, stubborn congestion in the head; sluggish digestion and elimination, extreme thirst; ifthere’s loss (or distortion) of taste/smell, then it is recovered quickly; shorter periods of extreme reside-in-bed fatigue (a day or two), trailed bymilder fatigue permitting most tasks (even work)
At a glance, some kind of phlegm blockage was obvious. The question was where. His T11-radiating pain was a sweet tip.I’d been introduced to BXXXT at my first GMP, I understood it to be particularly suited to clearing epigastric blockage, andreconnecting what was happening above and below in the body. Its ability to restore the yangming’s flow down and through, byopening a channel through the middle of the body, could help reinstate the right Yin/Yang relationship. For my patient, this waskey for releasing the yang and blood from above, in order to bring his body back into regulation. After treatment, he said it felt like“a pressure-valve release.” After being so disregulated, this was a welcome moment for my patient.Looking back at my practice over these Covid months, I’m reminded of a children’s book, "Brown Bear, Brown Bear — What doyou see?” I see a virus looking at me.What do you all see? Changing signs? Or possibly new strategies that have played out well to share?ReplySuzanne ConnoleMar 03, 2021ReactWhat a great case! I had one patient with pretty severe headaches and shooting pains down her arm post covid. It was notmusculoskletal in my opinion. I wish I had thought of looking at BXXXT as she was having a lot of GI upset as well. I ended up usingChai Hu Gui Zhi Gan Jiang Tang with ge gen and doing lots of acupuncture and it is finally cleared.ReplySuzanne ConnoleMar 03, 2021ReactI'm seeing all sorts of strange things. Loss of taste and smell, chronic body aches/heaviness, cognitive difficulties (losing words andmemory), and a few menstrual changes mostly more pain and clotting. The long haul is rough.1 reply 1Marina DanilovaSuppositories / ointmentsNewFeb 16, 2021ReactWant to explore using herbs topically for vaginal issues (age related dryness, irritation, frequent infections, etc). Does anyone haveexperience with herbal suppositories or ointments for this purpose. Any reading you can point me to? Where to start?Many thanks in advance!ReplyCaroline RadiceFeb 16, 2021ReactI think this was also posted by Suzanne C somewhere here and I responded saying Lorraine Wilcox will be talking about makingvaginal suppositories at the Shen Nong conference this year (she is the medicine maker!). I have used some from my Dermteacher's line (Mazin) . The suppository company I used to use went out of business sadly. I have recommended Vitamin E fordryness and boric acid for yeast but there are many companies and options for these.Marina DanilovaDosages for childrenNewFeb 11, 2021ReactCan you please share how you adjust dosages for children? Based on age, weight, both?
1 reply 11 reply 13 more comments3Many thanks!ReplyCaroline RadiceFeb 11, 20211ReactI generally adjust by weight using a standard adult dose as base, adjust by half for a half size person (say 50-80 lbs or so) and by aquarter and so on. On the really littles, tincture or extract easier to regulate more discrete dosing. I've tagged Cara as she makesthese and doses little fishes in a more specific method.Cara FrankReplyCara FrankFeb 12, 20211ReactHi Sorry to be AWOL. I got the 2nd vax and it kicked my butt. I'm still in bed.So here's the thing about kids; they are robust little creatures and, in general, we're often dealing with excessive patterns. thedosages can be fairly robust- almost grown-up doses for things like ear infections, cough, fever. Of course, in a grown-up, you alsomight be increasing the dose for an acute problem. In acute conditions, you want to make an impactful difference. Quickly.However, if say, you had a thin child with a poor appetite- like an iconic xiao jian zhong tang presentation, you likely do not needas high a dosage.Regarding administration: for little ones, using a medicine syringe and shooting it down their throat can work well. For bigger kids,mixing it in a NEW juice- not a juice they already like, usually works.But, a well-crafted peds formula will always include core treatment principles: they develop heat and phlegm quickly. Their shen isnot rooted well. their spleen qi is not fully developed. Further- I tend to avoid bitter herbs.Our extracts are not tinctures; they are 1:1 concentrates with 20% alcohol added, do they are very low alcohol. An adult dose isabout 1 tsp, so less than 1/4 tsp alcohol.is this helpful?Judith KenenZhi Gan Cao causing PalpitationsNewFeb 08, 2021ReactI have a client who gets palpitations when I give her Zhi Gan Cao. I've experimented with smaller doses and it still seems to botherher. When I take it out, it's better. I want to give it to her to mediate the Fu Zi I want her to take as well as because I want her totake Gui Zhi Tang. If I don't give it or Fu Zi, then I'm wondering what to give in place of it, if anything, and especially the Fu Zi. Reallywant it to help transform and steam fluids in her to bring it up to the surface. I saw posts about trouble with Zhi Gan Cao andblood pressure. Wondering what to add either in it's place and in the place of Fu Zi? Xian Miao? Ba Ji TIan?
2 teacher remarks1 reply 11 more comment1 ReplySharon Weizenbaum NewFeb 08, 2021ReactHi Judith,I would first consider why she might be having palpitations with the Zhi Gan Cao. Is it a frank allergy or is it due to the nature ofthe Zhi Gan Cao. Zhi Gan Cao is very sweet and sticky so it can aggravate stasis in the middle, making the Qi fail to descend andthereby back up to harass the heart. Have you ruled out any stasis in the middle? ReplyJudith KenenNewFeb 10, 2021ReactShe does have some stasis in the middle which I've been trying to treat but with little success. I'm clearly missing something. Ithink this would be a good case for the mentorship group. No glomus but a lot of spontaneous regurgitation, not necessarily withfood. Just feels like a little throw up in her mouth. No preference for hot or cold or temp associated with it athough she is a coldperson. She takes omnazaprole which helps with the regurg. No excess water signs in her St.
Judith KenenHivesNewMar 18, 2021ReactQuestion for teacherI just did a consult with a woman who has bad hives. Her patterns are Shaoyang, Jueyin and mild Taiyang. The hives are pink,raised and crazy itchy. Other than the damp from the hives, she doesn't have other noticeable damp symptoms.I'm thinking of giving Chai Hu Gui Zhi Tang, but was wondering if there are other formulas that I'm overlooking and what otheradditions folks could suggest to help bring it to the surface. I'm thinking of fang feng and chan tui. Thoughts? Thank you!Judith KenenHIvesNewMar 18, 2021ReactI just did a consult with a woman who has bad hives. Her patterns are Shaoyang, Jueyin and mild Taiyang. The hives are pink,raised and crazy itchy. Other than the damp from the hives, she doesn't have other noticeable damp symptoms.I'm thinking of giving Chai Hu Gui Zhi Tang, but was wondering if there are other formulas that I'm overlooking and what otheradditions folks could suggest to help bring it to the surface. I'm thinking of fang feng and chan tui. Thoughts? Thank you!Ozben FelekCelestial Secrets,NewMar 10, 2021ReactI finished reading Celestial Secrets and I wanted to ask you if my understanding is correct at this point.So you are saying that the part that explains dawning formulas and 6 spirits formulas can be maybe even older than SHL but the part that talksabout the 25 herbs and putting the herbs in 5 element circle and the draining and supplementing flavors of the herbs can’t be Han or Pre-Hanconcepts? I believe it is even written on the book that some of the draining and supplementing flavors are same as the one in Neijing and some ofthe different ones might be actually a mistake in FXJ?Would it be fair to say that dawning and 6 spirits formulas are worth to study but the flavors of the herbs in 5 phase might not be correcttherefore maybe does not hold much clinical value ¯\_()_/¯?I was also reading CCM Liu Lihong’s book and page 276-277 He says that in SHL, there are 3 formulas are the name for the stellar constellationsbut there is not a fourth formula for South (Zhuque Tang). In FXJ we do have the southern animal and formula, I am wondering what you thinkabout LLH’s comment about it?Sharon Weizenbaum,Sabine Wilms
1 teacher remarkJPEG | 3.2 M8284D7B0-BE85-4221-B9F9-29…Sharon Weizenbaum NewMar 10, 2021ReactHi Ozben,The 6 spirit formulas and the two dawning formulas have a more ancient feel to me, because the naming of the quadrantsaccording to the animals is so old. At the same time, the Wuxing are also very old. However, the association of herbs to the wuxing,as Sabine shows in the text, is more Song dynasty. I think it is very important to be clear that, just because the formulas have theseancient names, does not indicate that the formulas are ancient. It is likely that whoever compiled the Fxingjue was extrapolatingFROM the SHL and HDNJ. There is absolutely no evidence that any of these formulas pre-dated the SHL. All we know is that thiswas compiled in medieval China. The are most likely the musings of someone from that time. It's important to see that everythingwe study in EAM is connected to very old things. I know this was the logic used in the class we were both in...that these formulashave ancient names and are in the SHL means that this predates the SHL. This makes no sense. For example, just because aformula in the Wen Bing Tiao Bian has similar architecture to or is the same as a SHL formula does not mean the WBTB predatesthe SHL. The best is to see all of the FXJ formulas as complied in Medieval times and that's all we know.As for the flavors being different than the Neijing flavors, I don't think we can assume that this is a mistake in the FXJ. For me, itis interesting to consider why the compiler of the FXJ organized it this way. Why is pungent the substance, of earth? etc.Would it be fair to say that dawning and 6 spirits formulas are worth to study but the flavors of the herbs in 5 phase might notbe correct therefore maybe does not hold much clinical valueNo, I think there is tons of clinical value. Many of the Zang formulas are similar to or identical to JG and SHL formulas. To me, it isthe ideas in the formulas that are so interesting in addition to the formulas themselves. We can use these ideas, if not theformulas themselves. (BTW - I'm going to be teaching a class on this for Phil Settels, who is Dean of Academic Affairs, DAOMProgram at the Academy of Chinese Culture and Health Sciences. Sabine is teaching the first half on history and I'll teach on the clinicalaspects. I think it's open to anyone.)In the upcoming GMP class on March 19, we will talk briefly about the difference between 5 as in wuxing and 6 as in 6 conformations. Ithink this will help clarify too.
1 reply 1ReplyAs for what LLH wrote, he thinks that the southern direction is probably a Taiyang formula. This makes sense to me only in that theresolution of Taiyang is in the south. However, in the FXJ the Zhuniao Tang is more like HLEJT. I think this is because the movement ofthe south is toward the north. Taiyang's movement is from the north toward the south. I think this was the logic of the compiler of the FXJ.One thing to keep in mind is that the FXJ was compiled for Daoist practitioners as a mnemonic. It was meant to give them the tools tokeep their bodies in alignment so they could pursue enlightenment. I just finished an article about this that I will send you privately. Iwould and will post it in the WPC but not until well after the next lantern comes out!The FXJ has been taught to be the Tangye Jing. I was taught that way initially until I realized that the teacher was wanting to create amystique and to convince students that the teachings were most ancient. I am grateful to have historians like Sabine clarify how to look attexts. With the publication of Celestial Secrets, this should be cleared up once and for all. If a teacher still wants to insist that this is theTangye Jing, in spite of this translation, it is just to create a mystique. ReplySabine WilmsNewMar 12, 2021ReactGlad things are becoming more clear, Ozben, and also glad that you are taking time to really ask those hard critical questions.Ultimately, it is your responsibility to search out the most information you can find and then form your own opinion on the basisof that. I have given you all the information and facts to explain why I do follow the international consensus by both Western andChinese medical historians and the general consensus in China that the Fuxingjue is a medieval manuscript and must NOT beequated with a mythical Tangyejing. I have not seen convincing arguments to contradict that. Also, I assume you have listened tothe Qiological podcast I did with Michael Max (https://www.qiological.com/blog/celestial-secrets-tang-ye-jing) and the Tea TimeTalk conversation Sharon and I had on the topic? We are also going to do a pair of CEU talks organized by ACCHS, and probably acourse in the future. Regarding your question on the clinical value, YES, absolutely, I agree with Sharon, it's a super cool medievaltext that gives us very precious insight into a formative period in Chinese medical history where we jsut don't have a lot of otherevidence. This introduction of wuxing (five-dynamics) resonances into materia medica and formula literature was indeed a greatinnovation, and just because it happened during the Tang or Song, and not in the Han, that doesn't make it any less useful orinteresting for you in clinical terms. Both Sharon and I have had a lot of fun with this text.4 teacher remarksOzben FelekChai Hu Gui Zhi Gan Jiang TangNewMar 02, 2021ReactI listened to Dr. Huang Huang’s video and Sharon’s notes about Tian Hua Fen and I have a question in regards to CHGZGJT.It is one of the most commonly used formula in my practice especially combining with DGSYS.I do understand the function of the formula for constipation or dry stools by using Tian Hua Fen and Mu Li to moisten the fluidsbut since there is gan Jiang in the formula too, I wonder if the formula needs modification if a patient comes with symptoms thatdirect you to this formula except that instead of having constipation, if the patient has looser stools?thank you!Sharon WeizenbaumEran EvenNewMar 05, 2021React@Ozben FelekOzben Felek
1 reply 113 more comments13ReplyInteresting, as Dr.Huang Huang primarily uses the formula with patients that have loose stools, and if there is constipation, he'llmodify it as needed. I too use the formula with loose stools very often, and there's rarely an issue. I don't find that the THF or MLopen up the bowels, they do provide and restore healthy physiological fluids in the system, but no issues on bowels. I guess at theend of the day, if the presentation fits, the formula should do its trick ;) Hope that helps.EranReplySharon Weizenbaum NewMar 05, 2021 1ReactHi Candace,Yes, Eran's experience is similar to mine. The only way I consider it helpful for dry stool is in how it frees up fluids. At the sametime it can help the absorption of fluids so it can also help diarrhea. If the constipation is strong, I think you'd need to modify it.1 teacher remarkCandace JaniaGui Zhi tangNewMar 01, 2021React@Sally Rappeport I bet you would know this!Please excuse me if this has already been discussed, possibly I missed it...I was listening to my JGYL lecture with Eric Brand and he was discussing the fact that there is a strong possibility that GZT used Rougui back in ZZJ times along with chi shao (instead of gui zhi and bai shao), as shao yao had no differentiation at the time of the SHLwriting. Yes, I am sure many have substituted these herbs for various reasons when using GZT formulas but it seems to me thatZZJ may have primarily used Rou gui and Chi shao for wind strike? Would love your thoughts and if anyone does this regularly forthe exterior... Thanks!SallyEran EvenNewMar 01, 2021 | Edited 1React@Candace JaniaHi Candace, ah yes, this is a controversial subject and if you ask 10 people, you'll get 11 opinions. I wrote a small section in mydissertation on this, which I'll quickly translate and attach here. Some sections I didn't translate due to time, but you should get thegist of it.There exists much controversy and discussion on whether Zhang Zhong-Jing () used Rou Gui ( ) or Gui Zhi () in theShang Han Za Bing Lunand much of that discussion lays in the fact that it is unclear which part of the plant wasutilized more in the Han Dynasty (). All texts published prior to the Han Dynasty ( ) including the Wu Shi Er BingCandace Jania
1 reply 13 more comments3ReplyFangand the Huang Di Nei Jing refer to the plant simply as 'Gui' (). The Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing describes two types of Gui - Mu Gui and Jun Gui (‘ ’). According to most researchers, these refer to the sameplant but to different harvesting and processing methods. Both plants use the peel of the smaller branches with the rough outerbark removed. Mu Gui ( ) refers to the dried outer peel, which is formed into plates and slightly rolled or bent, and Jun Gui () to the dried peel, which is rolled into the shape of a pipe. Tao Hong Jing () refers to both these simply as Gui ‘ ’. Zou Shu-Zai says:“ .”This description suggests that since the peel of istypically removed in many Shang Han Za Bing Lun formulas, it is Rou Gui that is in fact used.A few of .“ .”“ .”However, while it is unclear on whether Gui Zhi or Rou Gui was used, and many believe it to have been Rou Gui ,Xu Shu-Wei thought that Gui Zhi should be used. “ .”ReplySharon Weizenbaum NewMar 05, 2021ReactYou are a treasure Eran.What do you use? Do you use both? For what circumstances.Since Gui Zhi is a twig, I tend to use it for the middle warmer out to the surface type issues. I use Rou Gui when I want to supportthe lower warmer Yang and blood.2 teacher remarksOzben FelekRaw herbs cooking methodNewFeb 14, 2021ReactQuestion for teacherHi Sharon,Could you please share your way of cooking raw herbs?Thank you!Sharon WeizenbaumSharon Weizenbaum NewFeb 15, 2021ReactHi Ozben, Yes, the way I've been doing it for many years is to give patients a week of herbs in one bag. they cook then only once aweek. I am attaching the herb cooking form I use. Usually the first boil is 45 min and the second is 30. They add enough water tocover the herbs generously.Lately I have been experimenting with a different method using a thermos but I've not had enough experience with it to say muchmore. I've been on sabbatical and so the number of patients I see is very low.
1 reply 11 more comment1 ReplyPDF | 58.5 KPDFHerbal_Cooking_Instructions ReplyOzben FelekNewFeb 15, 2021ReactThank you Sharon, I have heard from my herb teachers one bag for a day or max two days, so in your experience one bag for aweek is still strong enough to make a chance?Margaret SikowitzChicken Soup ReferencesNewJan 31, 20211ReactAs promised, here are some links that I referenced today, and some great input from the group.MORE ideas on all things cooking, food and food as medicine are welcome here.About Onions:Anti-inflammatory, oldest cultivated crop, digestive aid, used topicallyAbout Dill:Anti-inflammatoryAbout Hou PoGinger soaked and ginger fried
“The Chicken Soup Manifesto”From author, chef and teacher Jenn LouisBack of envelope 'recipe'BROTH FIRST: Start with already roasted chicken (!)Separate meat from chicken, add chicken (skin and bones) into a big pot of water with lots of salt and pepperAdd the 3 amigos of chicken soup: garlic, onion and gingerSlight boil, then long slow simmerSOUP SECOND:The broth is your blank canvas, flavor profile options are plentiful, here are a few:Citrus and cilantroLemongrassDillMushroomsCinnamon, anise, 5 spice powder, nutmegPeppers of many varieties, from jalepeno to Chuan Jiao (Szechuan pepper)And of course, a full range of Chinese herbs…Popular additions include:Huang qiDang guiShan yaoFu lingGreat suggestions include grinding herbs into a powder, using dang gui in a mole sauce, adding seaweed, kombu, and making asmall zip lock baggie size portion of ‘soup’ herbs as seen here in ITM's site.ReplyCaroline RadiceNewFeb 01, 2021 1Reactthis was a soup-er fun lecture - thank you
Sarah RivkinThoughts on COVID, shang han, and sweatingJan 31, 2021 | EditedReactI know there are many strong opinions in our profession about whether shang han theory and formulas are appropriate forCOVID, or whether it's a condition of wen bing or wen yi. Some recent cases of transmission among athletes during competitivegame play, when they were sweating a lot, make sense to me through the lens of shang han, but I'm not sure what folks in thewen bing or wen yi camp would have to say about this.Anyone care to weigh in?What got me going on this was some well publicized cases in the news of transmission among ice hockey players. Muchspeculation ensued about the cold, dry air facilitating spread. But as the mom of two (former) hockey players I kept thinking abouthow incredibly sweaty they always got (and during a season where you're not supposed to be sweating that much), more thanother sports, because of all the gear. Then a friends daughter (definite "gui zhi type") contracted COVID last week from playing asoccer game where the opposing team wasn't masked, which made me think of this again.I know this is a bit of a tangent for classical formulas, but it it classical theory :)ReplyAllyson NevardFeb 02, 2021ReactI have treated several cases of acute Covid - some severe and many in very high risk patients all with Shang Han Lun formulas.Sometimes I have needed the addition of cold, bitter herbs like Huang Lian when the digestion has been affected. Never yet have Ineeded something like Ban Lan Gen. Every case I have treated has been successful and all but one have resolved quickly. The onethat didn't was because I missed something at 1st. What does Wen yi mean, btw? I assumed it was the Chinese word for Covid. ReplySarah RivkinNewFeb 04, 2021 | Edited1React@Allyson O'Connell agreed! I don't know what the characters are for wen yi, but I think it's "wen" like wen bing (warm) "yi"epidemic. The Lantern had a special issue on COVID last year that I recall covered the theory behind it. So, not just COVID, butthose types of diseases and unique ideas around treatment.Allyson NevardMarnae ErgilMa Huang TangJan 25, 2021ReactMa Huang Tang is of course a formula that we are all familiar with. But let's talk about it. How do you use it? Do you have differentusages than the typical "Cold Damage" presentation? Do you use Ma Huang? Have you found substitutions that you like? Have youhad particular failures or successes with the formula?Ma Huang Tang
Ma Huang 9gGui Zhi 6gXIng Ren 9 - 12gZhi Gan Cao 3gReplyAllyson NevardNewFeb 02, 2021ReactHi marnae. I posted this in a different place but it is definitely meant to be here so I am copying and pasting it:While I have used many formulas containing Ma huang I have not used MHT on its own! The opportunity has just not presenteditself. In general, my feelings on the how to differentiate this formula pattern are that the pulse and the lack of sweating are the 2most important symptoms. There must be a floating, tight left cun and there must be no sweating. I would love to hear others'experiences.Marnae ErgilThinking about this Discussion PageJan 25, 2021ReactHello All -@Sally Rappeport and I have been asked by @Sharon Weizenbaum to moderate this page and I am afraid that we have not done avery good job of keeping it active. To that end, I would like to make a proposal. The title of the forum is "Classical Formulas". I havebeen teaching SHL, Pi Wei Lun and Wen Bing Theory for the past 10+ years in schools of CM and in doing that, one of the thingsthat I have created is a spreadsheet of all of the formulas contained in Formulas & Strategies with the text in which the originalformula is found. I have attached that spread sheet here for your use if you like (it also contains the chapter/category that is usedin F&S). Although the definition of "Classical Formulas" is not set in stone, I think most of us can agree that the formulas presentedby ZZJ in SHL and JGYL are classical. I would like to propose that we begin by going through the SHL/JGYL formulas that are alsopresented in F&S and discuss them...Have you used them in a case? Do you have a question about them? Is there more that youwould like to learn about them? This will take us quite a while and then we can decide where to move from there. I do not wantthis to overlap too much with the ZZJ Lines Discussion Forum so instead of working through how the formulas are described in thelines, I think it may be more useful for us to think about the formulas as they are used clinically today. Thoughts? Is this ofinterest? I will begin today by posting the first formula on the spread sheet, which just happens to be Ma Huang Tang.Sharon Weizenbaum,SallyXLSX | 151.1 KXLSXFormulas SS w authors
4 repliesSpreadsheet of all formulas inReplyMarnae ErgilJan 25, 2021ReactThis list contains 83 SHL formulas and 72 JGYL formulas for a total of 155 formulas.ReplyEmily RieffelNewFeb 08, 2021ReactThank you for this tremendous spreadsheet compilation, Marnae! I look forward to participating more in this forum, and I like theclinical approach you suggest. Like Nicole, I am trying to switch paradigms from the TCM approach I was taught and have practicedfor several years. I am going to be starting the GMP soon, but I have already started to learn a great deal from this community!2 replies 2Sarah Rivkinherbal support around COVID vaccinationNewJan 06, 2021 | EditedReactAs the vaccine starts to be distributed I was wondering what others are seeing in terms of side effects and how you are supportingyour patients with herbs.For children with routine immunizations I often give them gui zhi tang or chai hu gui zhi tang, as the symptoms are mild andsuperficial. Harmonizing ying and wei, supplementing earth seem to make sense there. But I'm hearing reports of morejoint/muscle pain, chills and headaches with the COVID vaccine, so wondering if I'll need to have some ma huang at the ready.I'm getting vaccinated myself next Tuesday, so I'll keep you posted on how I'm feeling and what I end up prescribing for myself.ReplyCaroline RadiceNewJan 06, 2021ReactWonder if it differs by manufacturer? Moderna the one most people have received here in NJ and only complaint is day after armsoreness so far... no personal reaction to report yetReplyKeren SelaNewJan 08, 2021 1ReactGot the first Pfizer dose yesterday, so far so good...Here in Israel over a million people have been vaccinated so far and the second dose is about to start. From what I hear over socialmedia, the news and speaking to friends and family, besides a it of local soreness in the muscle that lasts for about a day, someHeadaches and some low grade fever. All pass withing 24 hours. Will keep you updated since Israel has been dubbed the globalexperimental stage...(for good and for bad - more to come on that)
2 replies 215 more comments 151 teacher remark1 reply 16 more comments6Candace JaniaShao YangNewDec 31, 2020ReactIn the Shang Han Lun, when discussing Shaoyang stage pathology, the text talks about a bitter taste in the mouth, dry throat anddizzy vision. The first two are quite clear, yet the wording of "dizzy vision" likely holds a bit of confusion. If ZZJ meant simplydizziness, I am sure he would have simply written dizziness, not dizzy vision. I also do not think blurry vision is accurate either.I am not a scholar on the characters, and was wondering if anyone could clarify their experience with this term and how it relatesto clinical practice and what the character may reveal about this language translation. ReplyCaroline RadiceNewDec 31, 2020 1ReactCannot wait for the Zhang Zhong Jing lines module on WPC for this very reason! I also do not read Chinese which can be animpediment as we rely on others translations/descriptions but I am eager to continue to synthesize all opinions ReplySuzanne ConnoleNewDec 31, 20203Reacti am also looking forward to deeper discussion on these lines! Can't wait. My classical chinese is pretty much zero.I usually think about the term dizzy as referring to the effects of uncontrolled yang, the ministerial fire that cannot root and pivotflares up becoming pathological causing wind/heat signs in the head. So any symptom that has movement or lack of clarity in thehead (pathological yang qi versus clear physiological yang qi). This could be dizziness or blurry vision, headache, or unclearthinking, or ear issues causing balance problems.
2 teacher remarksAdina KletzelQuestions on 3 cases of Tian hua fen talkNewApr 18, 2021ReactI gained a lot from the presentation of the three cases of Tian hua fen given by Sharon Weizenbaum. I have a couple of questionson it.When a person has dispersion thirst and the fluids go right through them so is there a range of time after one drinks that theythen have to go pee for it to be considered dispersion thirst? 10 minutes, half and hour, an hour? Or is dispersion thirst justdefined as one who is thirsty and has frequent urination?Secondly, in your talk you referred to the shao yao type as being tense and rigid in body and mind. If a person is very tense andrigid and has signs of blood deficiency but does not have tight abdominal muscles at all would this move us away from consideringthis person a shao yao type or can a person be a strong shao yao type without having the tight abdominal muscles?Molly Shapiro NewApr 19, 2021ReactQuestion for teacherHi Sharon, I really enjoyed the lecture showcasing Tian Hua Fen in 3 different cases. I also have some questions that came up.As you were discussing the epididymitis case, I was thinking of Xiao Chai Hu Tang with Tian Hua Fen for Ban Xia and added BaiShao. You centered your formula around Si Ni San. I'm wondering why you didn't want to use Huang Qin when the pivot wasblocked and there was excess heat? Couldn't the Sheng Jiang + Da Zao create a steam in the stomach that would be useful in sucha dry patient?I understand the difference between using Ren Shen for adding fluids and Tian Hua Fen for absorbing fluids. How come theepigastric hardness finding is a Ren Shen (or Da Zao, ZGC) finding and not a Tian Hua Fen finding? Wouldn't using Tian Hua Fen tohelp the muscles absorb fluids help a dry spleen and this epigastric tightness?Could a Si Ni San + Tian Hua Fen, Mu Li pattern explain back pain, stiffness, or tightness that craves warmth? Since the musclesare tight due to heat damaging the fluids, it would make sense that this patient would crave stretching and maybe even ice. ButI'm wondering if the blood deficiency aspect could crave warmth?I know we are not to go from symptom to diagnosis or symptom to herb, but I feel like tight muscles = undernourished muscles =liver blood deficiency = Bai Shao. Is this a bad habit I should break?
1 more comment1ReplyLastly, I sense that you often combine Bai Shao and Tian Hua Fen for muscles that are tight from blood not nourishing and stifffrom heat drying. Is it also common to combine Shi Gao with Tian Hua Fen? It seems that the heat from a Yangming/Shi Gaopattern might damage the muscles, indicating Tian Hua Fen.ReplySharon Weizenbaum NewApr 19, 2021ReactHi Adina,As for your first question. I would suggest not getting to rule oriented about this. You have to ask questions and get a sense ofwhether the fluids are going right through or not.As for determining the "shao yao type," I would avoid this terminology. A"type" is always an extreme description created to get adeeper sense of an herb's nature and function. In clinic, really we just have signs and symptoms. Also, remember the rule from theGMP - always look at what is there and not what isn't there. If someone has for sure signs of blood xu, that would help explainrigid muscles.4 teacher remarks3 replies 3Emma Mezher ma huang substitutesNewApr 15, 2021 | EditedReactI have a granule pharmacy and am wanting to use formulas that have ma huang in them, but have no idea where to find it.Is there a good replacement for the ma huang in ma huang fu zi xi xin tang, for example? ReplySharon Weizenbaum NewApr 19, 2021ReactHi Emma,Jing Jie is sometimes used as a substitute in this formula. It is light and warm and pungent. You would use a higher dose than youwould with Ma Huang, maybe half again as much.Cara FrankNewApr 23, 2021React@Adina Kletzel @Emma Mezher- obviously, there is no real substitute for ma huang. So, the sub choice is based on what you aretrying to accomplish: downbearing the lung qi, you might select bai qian.Emma Mezher,Adina Kletzel
1 reply 1ReplyI agree about jing jie (I'd also park fang feng here- but it's less acrid).This falls into a strategy I call herbal money ball: We don't have star players for the Oakland A's, so we aggregate an effect.1 reply 1Jolene AlbrechtShen Nong Ben Cao JingNewApr 04, 2021ReactHi Sharon- I've been accumulating a list of recommended texts since the GMP2018, and recently purchased many of them. I have beenenjoying choosing one from random and reading here and there, as well as Liu LiHong's book I started last month! What is the difference between the two Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing texts that are both 3rd Editions: 1. Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing translated by Sabine Wilms and2. Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing Du translated by Corinna Theisinger editted by Eran Even & Jonathan SchellDo you recommend both or having one over the other? I will keep saying it- thank you so much for all you do to pass on classical medicine! Happy Easter, JoleneReplyEran EvenNewApr 09, 2021ReactHi @Jolene Albrecht, if you don't mind, I'll jump in here and answer until Sharon sees the message and jumps in as well.The first one (translated by Sabine) is the original Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing compiled sometime in the Han Dynasty and the secondone (that I had the pleasure of working on) is a commentary on the SNBCJ by Chen Xiu-Yuan that was written about 1800 yearslater in the Qing Dynasty.In all honesty, both are great to have as Sabine did a beautiful job translating the text and Chen Xiu-Yuan's has some reallyamazing clinical commentary that will build a more intimate relationship to the herb and almost make it come alive, and that is inthe way Chen wrote. Chen was such an important Classical scholar/physician, and reading Ben Cao commentaries by differentwriters, offers a glimpse into their way of thinking/practice. Hope that helps.Jolene AlbrechtAdina KletzelDr. Huang Huang video on ge gen - questionNewMar 29, 20211ReactQuestion for teacherAfter watching Dr. Huang huang’s classes on the Ten formula families and the Ge gen video I have a general question about histreatment approach. It seems that Dr. Huang Huang categorizes the use of herbs in terms of the type of person they treat and theWestern disease categories. While I find it very interesting to hear him speak about the formulas in this regard I am unsure as to
2 teacher remarks2 replies 2how to apply his teachings to the way that Sharon is teaching us in the GMP. We are taught to do a full differential diagnosis andsee each person’s symptoms for what they tell us for sure and not assume that a certain symptom brings us to a specific herb orformula.When Dr. Huang Huang says that he takes ge gen tang as a stimulant to help him focus when he is tired he seems to suggest thatall tired and unfocused students can take this formula to help them stay awake and focus. I did not consider that formulas can beused this way. It sounds like he is referring to ge gen tang as more of a patent formula for tiredness and grogginess rather than aformula from the SHL that treats a movement that is out of balance.He also says that Ge ge tang treats high blood pressure, dizziness, stiff necks and shoulders…There are many patterns that cancause these symptoms. Does Dr. Huang Huang do a differential diagnosis? I would like some guidance in how to understand anduse Dr. Haung Huang’s teachings while keeping Sharon’s method paramount in doing a full diagnosis and prescribing formulas.ReplySharon Weizenbaum NewMar 29, 20211ReactHi Adina, This is such great question! I'll give you my answer and I'd love to hear from @Eran Even who studied so deeply with Dr.Huang. Eran is speaking today, Monday, March 30 at 1pm so I hope you can attend that and maybe ask him yourself.Knowing Dr. Huang, he is always assuming we will ground ourselves in pattern recognition as we are learning in the GMP. So thefact that Ge Gen Tan CAN be used for hypertension means that we can explain hypertension with a Ge Gen pattern. Dr. Huang is avery robust person and was younger at the time of the video so his constitution can match the Ge Gen Tang formula for when hegets tired. Ge Gen Tang would do me in!When Dr. Huang came here, sometimes I thought his assumption that everyone was grounded in pattern recognition was notaccurate. Some students would leave thinking that Xiao Chai Hu Tang was the new magic autoimmune formula or that Wu LingSan was the anti-cancer formula! No! He was saying that a XCHT pattern could help explain an autoimmune illness but so couldmany other patterns. If I used Si Ni San for epididymitis in one case, this does not make Si Ni San THE epididymitis formula. Itmeans that, in that case, the Si Ni San pattern could help explain the disease. I know you understand this better than most.Remember that this came up with Dr. Yu Guojun. He would say "This formula works for all acne cases!" Which of course was notquite what he meant. He meant "if it matches the pattern!"Eran EvenAllyson NevardNewApr 18, 2021React@Eran EvenHi Eran,I just finally watched your Ge Gen talk which was fabulous. Can't wait for Part deux. I will immediately be increasing my standarddoses of Ge Gen.Huang Huang is such a character. I love his little tricks and tips - like giving his complicated patients Si Ni San for a few days to buyhim the time to come up with their formulas. I love the one you spoke of in this talk about giving Ge Gen Tang to taxi drivers andstudents to wake them up and help them focus. A quick question about this: does he do this based solely on a taxidriver's/student's look or does he actually take their pulses or ask them if they don't sweat well? As someone who has not yetstudied with any of these great Chinese teachers at their clinics in China, I am always trying to get a visual on how they operate.Picturing Huang Huang in these situations is particularly fun. I'm just picturing him in the back of a cab handing the driver a packetEran Even
1 reply 12 more comments2Replyof herbs. I've always trepidatious about giving MH based formulas bc it is such a stimulant. I'm always checking and doublechecking that they don't sweat and have a strong tight left cun. Sometimes i think this gets in my way...2nd question - Would you mind elaborating a little on the particular features of a patient who HH would give MXSGT to for a skinissue? Red, hot skin issues with thirst and a full, rapid pulse?Thank you!1 teacher remarkMarina DanilovaHerb-drug interactionNewMar 23, 20211ReactI wonder what is your approach to considering herb-drug interaction.I have been relying entirely on the assessment and diagnosis and have not been given particular attention to individual herbs vsindividual drugs possible interactions. Not sure if I am lucky but I have never had any adverse effects in my patients that I wouldattribute to a possible interaction of herbs with pharmaceutical drugs. I can of course get some "side effects", but after adjustingthe formula accordingly, they go away.I'd like to check if there is a useful rule of thumb to ensure safety of herbal prescription when the patient takes drugs.Many thanks,MarinaSharon WeizenbaumSharon Weizenbaum NewMar 29, 20211ReactHi Marina,I also rely entirely on the assessment and diagnosis as the foundation of safety. If I have adverse responses I re-evaluate myformula. I think of the herbs as working very differently than western drugs. One analogy I use is with plants. If you have a plantgrowing in the earth and pesticides, herbicides or fertilizers are being used, we would not worry about how some good compost,sunlight, rain and air would interact with the chemicals. I think of, not just the herbs, but the way we work with the herbs, assimply improving the function and environment of the organism, i.e. the patient. This is my general rule and it has been echoed bymany doctors.I just translated a piece from a doctor from the fire god school about herbs in pregnancy - saying that the only contraindication forpregnancy is wrong diagnosis and lack of clarity in treatment. He was saying that the wrong diagnosis can make Bai Zhudangerous!On the other hand, as people get better, sometimes the dosage for their medication must change. For example, if someone is onthyroid meds for hypothyroid, as they get better, they may begin to show signs of hyperthyroid. So, we have to be aware of themedications people are on, what they are doing for the patient so we can respond. Someone becoming hyperthyroid in this case isnot an "herb-drug" interaction and we would not want to interpret it this way.I also have found it important to see how meds may work against my treatment. I am thinking of an example of a patient who tookAmbien every night. I finally decided that this was why I couldn't work with her foggy thinking and fatigue.Does this help?Caroline Radice,Marnae Ergil,Eran Even,Margaret Sikowitz,Sally
1 more comment 1ReplyI would love to hear from others @Sally Rappeport @Marnae Ergil @Caroline Radice @Margaret Sikowitz @Eran EvenReplyMarina DanilovaNewMar 29, 2021ReactHi Sharon,Thanks a lot for your thorough reply. I am very pleased that my approach is similar to yours. The diagnosis is really the key. As isthe art of designing and modifying a formula, of course!I also believe that many possible herb-drug interactions are based on the Western research of one isolated constituent in a herb. Istrongly feel we should not conflate Western and Chinese herb properties, but keep these two systems separate and strictlyadhere to our foundations.On another note, will your translation of the Huo Shen Pai doctor's article be available? Would love to see it!Many thanks Sharon,Marina1 teacher remarkAdina KletzelGe gen ebook - clarification on Ben Tun tangNewMar 23, 20211ReactQuestion for teacherIn reading through the Ge gen ebook I was trying to understand the formula Ben Tun tang. It says that it is for running pigletmanifesting with qi upsurging to the chest, abdominal pain and alternating heat and cold. It also says that it soothes and regulatesthe liv and gb and down bears the rebellious surging and that the formula is for constrained heat in the liv/gb that is leading torunning piglet qi disease.I would like to understand the breadth of running piglet disease. Is its definition strictly upward surging from the lower abdomeninto the chest? Is the surging a subjective experience or more objective – as in any rising up symptoms? Is a migraine consideredsurging up or is that not running piglet because it is not to the chest?I have a client who gets migraines when her liver qi is constrained – before ovulation, period, and when she is stressed and angry.She gets very nauseous with the migraines which can lead to incessant vomiting. She also has liver blood deficiency. The surging isfrom constraint in the liver/gb and especially before her period. Is this considered running piglet and can this formula beconsidered?The ebook also mentions that gan li gen bai pi can be difficult to get and the guan lou gen can be a substitute. Have others usedgua lou gen as a substitutes and is it adequate?Sharon Weizenbaum NewMar 29, 20211ReactOkay, I keep tagging @Eran Even. I hope this is okay Eran! I think not so many people have experience with this formula and Eranmay.Eran Even
2 replies 2ReplyAs for differentiating Ben Tun from upsurge, that's tricky. In truth, most cases we see have some form of Yang coming out of rightrelationship right! So, I think, rather than trying to define Ben Tun too rigidly, it's good to look at the pattern. Of course the writingin the ebook doesn't use quite the same language we use in the GMP, (which I would love to add to the ebooks as some point) Thepattern for BTT is slow Jueyin (so Dang Gui and Chuan Xiong are used) and slow Shaoyang (Huang Qin unlocks the pivot socontained fire is reduced) We have the Ge Gen and Bai Shao bringing moisture and relaxation to constrained muscles. Thepattern, like XCHT, involves Wood acting on Earth with upsurge, so Ban Xia is used. So, with your patient, does her pattern fit this?Does she have some blood stasis, constrained heat, tight muscles? That would be how I would tell if this fits her rather than tryingto figure out if her migraines are or are not Ben Tun. Does this make sense? As for the Tian Hua Fen, just ask if there is more thirst,dispersion thirst. I think Sang Bai Pi is often substituted which, for me, would indicate that the constrained heat was effecting herlungs. ReplyCara FrankNewApr 23, 2021ReactThere was a nice thread on FB with Brandt and Eran about this. I was just searching for ben tun tang online and the formula thatseems to be more frequently mentions is Ben Tun Wan: This version is from much later- qing dynasty, from the Yī Xué Xīn Wù-Medical revelations.Chuan Lian ZiFu LingJu heLi Zhi hexiao hui xiangMu xiangThis is vastly different from Ben tun tang: I pasted the rx below. Here, it's obvious by looking that the liver channel is emphasized.If I looked at the group of herbs, without knowing the name of the rx, I would say- this is for a hernia due to cold in the liverchannel. In Bensky- what is written ( paraphrasing) cold obstructs the qi in the lower burner, compromising qi transformation,resulting in flaring of ministerial fire in a chaotic manner. Cold limbs and body, white greasy tongue, wiry tight pulse.Gān Cǎo 2 liǎngBàn Xià 4 liǎngShēng Jiāng 4 liǎngShēng Gé (Gēn) 5 liǎngHuáng Qín 2 liǎngXiōng Qióng 2 liǎngDāng Guī 2 liǎngSháo Yào 2 liǎngGān Lǐ Gēn Bái Pí 1 jīnAdina KletzelChalky herbs lecture reflections and questionMar 22, 2021React
1 teacher remarkI gained SO much from the talk on Chalky herbs. I feel like a whole group of herbs just opened up for me and now make sense.The reminder that there can be leakage of fluids both inside the body and out was very significant for me. Chalky herbs would beappropriate for use even when there is pooling up inside the body because this too is leakage and the ability of the spleen andkidney to absorb those fluids needs to be strengthened.I have been treating a 74 year old woman for a while and I have not been able to get her formula right. I now understand why. Shehas chronic UTI’s, mucus in her stools, a very puffed out epigastrium and very frequent nighttime urination. She is also constipatedwith dry stools, has dry skin and eyes, very tight and painful upper back muscles, and her tongue does not show any signs ofdamp.I have been focusing on draining all of that excess fluid from her LW without enough recognition that she is SO dry because herfluids are either pooling up or leaking out. She needs chalky herbs to help her spleen and kidney absorb her fluids. Her muscles,skin, and stools are all dry. Her body is filled with pathological fluids but not physiological fluids.For those who practice Saam acupuncture, I was very hesitant to tonify the kid because I did not want to consolidate all of thefluids in her body. We got to the point where she had low energy, her lower back was hurting in the kid area and she was gettingup to pee 3-4 times a night so I tonified Kid. For two days after the treatment she had hot explosive diarrhea and frequenturination and then she felt much better. I view the treatment as a chalky herb treatment in that her body began absorbing someof the fluids and so it was finally able to push out some of the pathological fluids it was holding onto.In relation to herbs I wanted to know how to determine the right balance of how much to absorb with chalky herbs and how muchto drain out the fluids with draining herbs?I gave the above mentioned client Wu ling san once for a UTI that had cold symptoms and she felt very pulled down and tired onthe formula and it only temporarily helped with the UTI. My feeling is that the balance of draining versus absorption in Wu ling sanwas not right for her. I would love some guidance on how I may be able to better figure out this balance.ReplySharon Weizenbaum Apr 11, 2021ReactHi Adina, @Adina Kletzel I know this post was a few weeks ago. Do you have an update? But as for your question. The balance of aformula is so hard to answer to. Wu Ling San is definitely more draining and not very absorptive - I would say 3 parts drain and1part absorb. It's important to look at this when considering chalky herbs. For example, I consider Shan Yao as 100% absorptive.Adina Kletzel
Zoe Brenner5 & 6 systemsNewJun 19, 2021ReactI laughed when I saw my recently arrived Lantern with an article on Diseases of 6 and 5 right after thediscussion about those models. But in this case it was the 6 qi, cold, heat, fire, etc. It points to the issue thatthere can be any number of things that are divided in to 5’s and 6’s. I have learned so much from Sharon about the 6 conformations which I certainly didn’t learn when I firststudied herbs about 40 years ago. I feel like I am still catching up! It is a fabulous way to work with herbs. Iam often excited. Sharon, you seem to process similarly to me in sensing the reality in relation toexperience, so I like listening to you. Anyway I realized I was bit confused when you seemed to be describing the 5 orientation with terms that Ithought were TCM categories like stagnant Liver qi, etc. Perhaps I misunderstood. With my years ofdifferent 5 based systems, I thought the better teachers were pointing to the relationships of the Phaseslike generation and control as in the Nan Jing. So it was really about a cycle, also, but of relationships. I didnot see this in TCM categories. It seems those descriptions are functions within the Zang and even the Fu.The descriptions were more discreet and not related to 5 phases. I was told many times by TCM folks thatnow the Chinese did not consider 5 Phases relevant. Although that may have changed. Perhaps I ammisunderstanding you or we don’t agree on a 5 system. We probably agree on the same functions of theZang so that part coincides. But to me that is more TCM. It is just that 5 systems for me are cycles ofrelationships of the Phases. I agree that you can’t mix the 5 and 6 maps and get a diagnosis from combining. We can gain a lot ofunderstanding from looking inside 5 and 6 systems to get some parts of the other maps. I found therewere many nuggets in Liu’s book that crossed over. Yet, the lenses for 5 and 6 are different. I offer this to further the discussion.Sharon Weizenbaum
1 teacher remark ReplySharon Weizenbaum NewJun 19, 2021 | Edited1ReactHi Zoe and thanks for posting! @Zoe BrennerFor me, concepts like liver Qi stagnation and spleen deficiency etc are exclusively the purview of modernTCM. Zang and Fu are intimately associated there with the Wuxing in the Huangdi Neijing, where it talks somuch about Zang Fu, Qi, Blood and Body Fluids in terms of stasis, excess, deficiency. It is really in theNanjing that the Ke cycle and husband wife kinds of things were discussed. I think what TCM did with ZangFu, Qi, Blood and Body Fluids is to reify it and create fixed categories without the relationship to thecircular dynamics and movement of life. This deadened it and made it less applicable to life. So, when I amtalking about Zang Fu, Qi, Blood and Body Fluids, it is in the effort to see what organs are being affectedand how. For me, articulating this is a step in the diagnostic process. I see that for modern TCM, it IS thediagnosis. The next step in the diagnostic process is to see the pattern in terms of the Yin Yang symbol,which expresses the 4 directions and center of the Wuxing. I literally draw a circle and the Yin Yang symboland place the aspects of the diagnosis where they belong in the 4 directions and center. Then the "greatsweeping motions" reveal themselves. Then I can see what needs to be speeded up or slowed down. I canalso then see the relationships between the Sheng and Ke cycles clearly. Does this make sense?It seems unfortunate to me that modern TCM is sort of considered "Zang Fu" (said with a bit of a sneer bypeople who practice with classical Chinese medicine and by Five Element practitioners as well.) Zang Fu hasgotten a bad name. But this is not due to Zang Fu itself but more the rigidity of modern TCM. And theNeijing and the Shanghanlun are both full of references to Zang Fu. For me, I think it is a false separationand that we can benefit greatly by SEEing the Zang Fu, Qi, Blood and Body Fluids, as the Neijing suggests.We can contemplate and perceive the color, sound, emotion as well, which reveal all manner ofresonances. For herbal medicine, for me, none of this is in contradiction to then SEEing it through 6, thegreat sweeping motions.Zoe BrennerZoe BrennerNewJun 20, 2021ReactI do agree with your response. I had not had that reaction before to what you were speaking about. I thinkwhat caught me was the reference to Liver Qi Stagnation and some other tags that sounded like the rathernarrow TCM categories. So I wasn’t sure about what you were saying. I agree, certainly, that Zang and Fuare certainly all throughout the Nei Jing, etc. and their functions are how we learn about them. The Liverdoes affects on movement of qi and blood. When reduced to narrower functions a lot gets lost about therelationships and how one aspect effects another or develops into imbalances.
1 more comment1ReplyPerhaps we both mentioned concepts in an abbreviated way in interest of time or parsimony, which led toconfusion. Because we seem to be in agreement.Erin AlexanderThermos method of decocting herbsNewJun 02, 2021ReactHi,I am interested in knowing more about the thermos method of decocting herbs. Specifically what do youdo when working with herbs that would normally be added at the end of cooking or that need a longertime to cook. With fu zi for example, would you cook it first before adding it to the rest of the herbs? Orwith fragrant herbs would you add it near the end of the steeping time?Thankyou,ErinEran EvenEran EvenNewJun 02, 2021ReactHi Erin, no problem, happy to help :)To answer your questions, when I prescribe something with Fu ZI, or Long Gu, Mu Li, (essentially anythingthat needs to be cooked long) I ask my patients to soak the herbs overnight in the thermos, that way I findthat the long infusion deals with the potential toxicity, and breaks down some of the harder, and densermedicinals.I offer my patients two options for prepping the herbs. The first being the overnight soak, and for thesecond, I ask them to use the same dosages and water amounts and simmer on a medium heat for 5-10minutes, strain, and divide. Some use this method, but most prefer the overnight soak.Interestingly enough, there was a study that compared traditional decoctions with powdered herbs used inthis method, and they found that the powdering and quick soaks (they used 4-5 minutes) actually pulled
1 reply 15 more comments5Replyout more of the plant constituents, and was considered to be stronger. Go figure! This method was quitepopular in the Song Dynasty.Hope that helps,EranReplySuzanne ConnoleNewJun 07, 2021ReactI'd love to hear more about this. It seems like it only works if you have a raw herb pharmacy and a grinderto prepare it yourself?Joy BlaisFukushinApr 04, 2021ReactThanks to Kumiko for a wonderful Fukushin class! I am curious about the history of abdominal diagnosis inthe China. Kumiko mentioned during her webinar that she closely noted all the times that Zhang Zhong-Jingmentioned abdominal signs in the Shang Han Lun, but that the only comprehensive books on abdominaldiagnosis translated into English are from a Japanese lineage. My understanding is that both Haradiagnosis & Fukushin are based on the information from classical Chinese texts. Are there any Chinesetexts that exclusively discuss the abdomen in regards to diagnosis? Do they exist but have not yet beentranslated into English, or has the refinement of abdominal diagnosis flourished mostly in Japan?Suzanne ConnoleNewApr 08, 20211React
1 reply 14 replies 4ReplyIt is my understanding that there was very little development of this practice in China. I remember learningthat this was due to cultural taboos around touch in certain eras in China versus Japan. The result was arefinement of the use of pulse diagnosis in China over other palpation techniques. Nigel talks about this alot in his course. I can see if I can find a source for this.ReplyEran EvenNewApr 08, 20211ReactHI @Joy Blais, yes you're right, Abdominal diagnosis () didn't really get as much attention as it did inJapan, and the majority of the information out there is based around the Japanese take on it. There is asubstantial amount of information in Chinese now on it as with the revival of Classical medicine in China,there's been more interest in abdominal diagnosis. One of the biggest teachers and proponents of AbdDiagnosis in China right now is a fella named Wang Ning-Yuan () but unfortunately none of his workhas been translated. Yet!Joy BlaisMolly ShapiroChai Hu Gui Zhi Gan Jiang TangNewApr 04, 2021ReactHi Guy,Thank you so much for your presentation on Chai Hu Gui Zhi Gan Jiang Tang. Not surprisingly, it was reallywell done.In CHGZGJT, you discussed how this formula can address different types of dispersion thirst. Gan Cao GanJiang Tang for the frozen earth and Tian Hua Fen + Mu Li for the heat in the stomach. When it comes totemperature preference, therefore, could we see a desire for either cold or hot water?Liu Du Zhou seems to put an emphasis on the cold earth with the modification suggestion to increase GanJiang and decrease Huang Qin if there is diarrhea. It seems plausible that the diarrhea could be explainedGuy Sedan
2 replies 21 reply 15 more comments5by the heat build up from the blocked pivot or hot stomach as well. Do you agree?ReplyOzben FelekNewApr 05, 2021ReactI also would like to ask a question about a modification; I prescribed CHGZGJT + DGSYS for a pt, she doesnot use any animal product so instead of mu li, I used zhi mu, she has night sweating. She seemed torespond very well to the formula but continuous to experience some anxiety, would you recommend anyreplacement instead of mu li?Eran Even,Sharon Weizenbaum,Guy Sedan ReplyGuy SedanNewApr 06, 2021 | EditedReactHi @Molly Shapiro Yes, we could see signs of craving for cold or hot beverages, it depends on the degree of cold or heat in thepresentation. You could also not see any signs of thirst. If you remember, one of the indications Gan CaoGan jiang tang is 'the patient will not experience thirst' (Chapter 7, "Lung Wilting disease" , line 5). So itreally depends on the degree of cold and heat in the presentation. This is also true to the diarrhea. Liu Du Zhou modification was for a "clear food diarrhea" i.e. not smelly. Ifthe diarrhea is smelly than this points to a heat in the "Large intestine". If this is the case, you will need tomake sure that there is indeed a "cold spleen" to apply CHGZGJT.Molly Shapiro
1 teacher remarkSallyWu mei wanNewMar 31, 2021React@Eran Even @Marnae Ergil @Sharon Weizenbaum @Jack RadnerThe dosages in the SHL for Wu mei wan are very high. I always use 30g of Wu mei with this formula, but Ilower the dosages of other herbs. What do you do clinically? Have you ever used the formula with the highdosages of Gan jiang (30g), and Huang lian (48g)? Normally I try to maintain ratios, but with this formula Ido not. Jack asked about this, and I'm curious about your answers also.Sharon Weizenbaum,Eran Even,Marnae Ergil,Jack RadnerReplyEran EvenNewMar 31, 20211React@Sally Rappeport hi Sally, I use this formula pretty often but lower the dosages dramatically. The originaldosages are meant for making pills ( ). In the original line of the SHL the powder is made into small pillsand I believe only 10 are taken before meals? Nonetheless it’s pretty small, so I typically try to keep theratios the same but drop down dramatically for decoction doses. Hope that helpsSallySharon Weizenbaum NewJun 03, 2021ReactHi Sally, having translated and read many Wu Mei Wan case studies in an effort to understand it, I've seenthat it is one of the most messed with formulas ever. I mean that many doctors take a lot of liberty with thedosages and substitutions. This gives me a sense of permission to adjust as I see fit. I have pasted a case inpoint by Qin Bowei below. This is quite an extreme modification!I wonder @Eran Even, how you think about the rice and vinegar when you give it in decoction?Qin Bo-WeiChronic Diarrhea and AmenorrheaMs Zhao was a 23 year old woman.[1]Eran Even
Main complaint: in 1951 Ms. Zhao bowel movements became sticky and loose. The symptoms would comeand go. She took many western and Chinese drugs with no effect. At the start of winter in 1961 thefrequency of the diarrhea increased and began to happen at night so she came in for a check up.Check up: At the time of the visit, Ms. Zhao was moving her bowels 2-3 times per day and another 1-2times during the night. Before she moved her bowels she heard noises and felt abdominal distention andpain. She would often leak when she had flatulence. Her condition was hard for her to bear. After movingher bowels, she immediately felt more comfortable. Ms. Zhao also experienced profuse sweat, heat in theheart and palms, dry mouth with a desire to drink, poor appetite, sore lower back, heavy lower limbs. Herlower back liked to be warm. She also had amenorrhea. Her pulse was deep and thin and her tongue bodywas pale with a slippery, sticky white moss.Differential diagnosis was Chronic diarrhea related to Kidney vacuity, cold damp stagnating with heataccumulating.Treatment method: I used the pungent, bitter, sweet and sour flavor of Wu Mei Wan in order to treatchronic diarrhea.Dang Shen 10 gm.Rou Gui 5Huang Lian 3Mu Xiang 5Chuan Jiao 3Dang Gui 9Bai Shao 9Zhi Gan Cao 5Si Shen Wan 18Second Visit: After taking four packages of these herbs, Ms. Zhao’s abdominal pain had slightly decreasedbut all her other symptoms remained unchanged. I reconsidered the sticky white tongue moss anddecided to first dispel lower jiao heaviness with accumulated damp. I took out the Bai Shao and Si ShenWan and added
1 reply 1ReplyCang Zhu,Wu Yao,Rou Dou KouPao Jiang.Third Visit: After 4 packages of the herbs the abdominal pain had greatly decreased and there was noflatulence. At night, there was no diarrhea. Her tongue moss had transformed to thin. Her menses camethough the amount was scanty and the color purple. I gave her more of the previous formula, adding XiaoHui Xiang to open through the Kidney Qi. The illness was moving toward resolution. Checking in ½ a yearlater, there was no relapse.This illness had lasted ten years. The diarrhea was at daybreak and at night and was accompanied by lowback soreness and limb heaviness and lower back craving warmth. This showed lower warmer vacuity cold,which belongs to the category of Kidney diarrhea. On the other hand, this was combined with interiorabdominal distention and pain, relief after moving the bowels as well as palm heat, dry mouth andamenorrhea. These signs and symptoms illustrate that the stomach and intestine are not transforming anddispersing food. Simultaneously there are manifestations of Liver vacuity with depressive heat. Vacuity,Excess, Cold and Heat are mixed. Cold damp has heat knotted within. In terms of chronic diarrhea andchronic leakage pathology, Dr. Qin often selects Wu Mei Wan method for treatment. This often obtains agood result.[1] [1] Taken from (Zhong Guo Xian Dai Ming Zhong Yi Yi An Jing Hua), Essential Traditional Chinese MedicalCase Studies from Famous Modern Doctors, Volume 3, page 1639. Pub by Bei Jing Science and TechnologyPress, 1990Ann ClearyChai Hu Gui Zhi Gan Jiang TangNewMar 29, 2021React
Hi Guy,Thanks so much for the presentation. It was serendipitous to learn it again after just learning it with @SallyRappeport . Your breakdown was very clear and there were lots of useful nuggets. Ever since Sally firstmentioned we would be learning it up to now having seen your presentation I have been thinking it may bea good fit for a patient of mine. I have definitely enthusiastically and mistakenly applied a new formula inthe past, so I was hoping to hear from others more experienced what they think of my assessment.The patient is in her mid-50s, mother of four, post menopausal, with a strong build. When I first startedworking with her about a year ago she was apple shaped, but now with intermittent fasting and treatmentshe is a strong medium to large, healthily shaped build.She has a history of constant lifelong allergies (since a small girl); she no longer takes medications and theynow only act up on occasion with the Santa Ana winds. She experiences them as post nasal drip or scratchythroat. She has a history of strong pain in her hips and back and has had several serious spinal and hipsurgeries to treat, but is now out of pain except for a tight sensation right arch of foot.She has had off again on again hot flashes that sometimes have gone away with treatment only to return.Likewise with thirst (craves room temperature seltzer) and dry mouth, and most recently, anotherseemingly solved symptom has returned: a hard epigastrium. The hot flashes happen mostly at night andare light, accompanied by a “light misting” of sweat (her words) along back and, interestingly, in betweenher fingers. When the fingers sweat, her hands also get tight and stiff, and this resolves as soon as thesweating is over. Previously, she had a period where she was only sweating from her head but that is notnow.Her belly is fleshy and has stretch marks from her pregnancy, and cool to the touch above the belly buttonand warm below. It used to be kind of like a water bed, as in bound by flesh and subcutaneous tissue butvery liquidy underneath and cool/ cold. I have been doing a needling technique to remove cold, and thecold area is now reduced to the right liver area and an area left st 25. The flesh itself is much firmer and nolonger like a water bed. Like I said above, below the belly button is now warm, as though she had rested acup of tea there (her words, happily confirmed by my palpation). Each of the treatments on hersubcutaneous cold tissue were followed by strong chills, with an actual measurable fever though shedoesn’t feel warm. The first time was the strongest and longest duration (over a period of day) and feverwas 102 something. These are all followed by a break in the fever and a drastic reduction in any body pain.This only happens the weeks I treat this subq tissue, and so I don’t think it is diagnostic but rather areplaying of the symptoms that happened when cold was trapped there initially during an operation on herspine that was conducted through her front (!!). She reports she had the same types of chills with feverwhen she came out of that surgery. I am including it here in case others think it is relevant to her currentclinical picture.Guy Sedan,Sally
When I palpate her epigastrium, I feel the hard area and it makes her nauseous; the past two weeks herappetite has been diminishing to where she eats because it is time to eat only. Meanwhile her mouth is dryand pasty (longstanding, I have not been able to shift this) and lately, she is markedly thirsty.She also bruises extremely easily and bruises take a long time to heal.tongue is indented, puffy, uniform white coat over entire top to the point that I can’t assess tongue bodycolor, red on bottom, slv d/d (the tongue coat actually reminds me of Guy’s case study tongue coat)Pulses are rapid and wiryBowels, bladder, aversions to heat cold wind all unremarkable. No subcostal discomfort.What I know for sure:chronic allergies poor processing at the surfacesweat exterior openhip pain (do I count this if it’s not happening currently?) stagnation in the gb/ liver channelwarm flushing mostly at night heatcool belly coldhard epigastrium weak sppoor appetite poor t and tthirst for room temp dryness/ poor fluid metabolismpasty mouth dryness/ poor fluid metabolismeasy to bruise, slow to heal poor water/ blood relationship? qi stagnation at the surface?tight right arch kidney/ sp sinew not nourishedred tongue heatthick white coat (cold) dampd/d slv blood stasis
rapid pulse heatwiry pulse liver involvementIs the wiry pulse, indented tongue, hip pain, and sweating in the webbing of the fingers, a scissor like area,enough to place the heat in the shaoyang? If so, my dx is: shaoyang heat, dry, cold and deficient sp, poorquality blood, poor fluid metabolism.Treatment principle would be to grease the shaoyang pivot, moisten and warm earth, generate andharmonize fluids. If the blood stasis is secondary to heat and fluids/ blood out of harmony due to poor fluidmetabolism, blood does not have to be treated too strongly.I am thinking chgzgjt with added bai shao. I would love any feedback on my attempt at diagnosis andtreatment ideas. Also curious to hear anyone’s thought on if I need to see unbeneficial urination in order toapply this formula. I think the quote at the end from Dr. Jiang that as long as you see taiyin and shaoyangthat this formula can be confidently applied is saying that no. I am also wondering if the hard epigastriumand lack of appetite with heat could be a yang ming block? The sweating is sporadic and mild, not related tobeing in a warm area, and her right guan is not full, so I think it is not, but please let me know if I ammissing something.Thanks much for reading this far. :)Guy SedanNewMar 31, 2021 | EditedReactHi Ann, I don't see signs pointing to excess in the liver, so right now I don't think you can diagnose a "liver qistagnation" pattern, which is part of the "CHGZGJT pattern". Here is what I saw for sure: strong build not only deficiency Hot flashes Yang O/O R/R Thirst Mouth wants moisture Tight epigastrium Dry Spleen Xu Tongue: Indented Wood involvement Puffy Dampness Red HEAT For me, a "cool belly " is not enough to diagnose a Yang deficiency. This is a sign I would like to explain with
1 reply 1Replythe diagnosis. Concerning the allergies, how are they experienced? what are the triggers? Exposure to Wind? You wrote "she eats because it is time to eat only" - Does she have a glomus? i.e. she can't each muchbecause she feel easily full in the epigastric area? How is her blood circulation? Due to her history, I would look for blood stagnation signs. This can alsoexplain her hot flashes. Remember that "Sweating" is not a sign of an open exterior. For example a "Bai Hu Tang" pattern can havesweating too. I would need signs to that point to a "Liver Excess" and "Cold Spleen" to think of a CHGZGJT pattern. ReplyGuy SedanNewApr 06, 2021 | EditedReactHi Ann, We know she has some wood involvement. Her tight muscles point to 'muscles not being nourished', whichare a blood deficiency sign. We also know she has blood stagnation in her lower Jiao from the "threadyvaricosities throughout her lower body" and dampness. We also know she has some cold below (spleen deficiency, cold abdomen) and heat above (hot flashes)with a glomus, I would consider combing Ban Xia Xie Xing Tang + Dang Gui Shao Yao San Since she is thirsty I would consider replacing Ban Xia with Tian Hua Fen.As for her allergies, I would correct the glomus first and deal with them later. DGSYS addresses issues were we have a weak spleen, dampness and blood issues. We can explain her hot flashes/heat symptoms due to two factors: 1. Yang Ming failing to descend due to the glomus2. Ministerial Fire flaring due to the weak stagnant bloodHope this helps!
Candace JaniaIt’s Sang Shen time!NewJun 23, 2021ReactWhen I moved onto my farm in 2012, I planted a white mulberry tree, knowing that Fructus Mori Alba is themedicinal version of the more typical purple mulberry that is in NJ.As a nice reminder of this lovely herb, Sang Shen tonifies yin and blood, moistens the large intestine and iscooling. It is very gentle and not often thought about or used (especially compared to sang zhi, sang jisheng etc). In the Shennong Ben cao, it is mentioned that sang shen should be used when “recuperatingfrom a damaged center and (to) supplement the five taxations”. This is a testament to its gentle, nourishingnature.If you look at the picture, you can see why it would be so moistening. It looks moist and fluid filled. Be onthe lookout for this tree near you!JPEG | 2.1 M7164048C-BCF1-4F…JPEG | 785 KF1829ACE-6223-4A…
3 more comments3 ReplyMargaret SikowitzNewJun 24, 2021ReactGorgeous! What do you do with that lovely fruit? ReplyCandace JaniaNewJun 24, 2021ReactEat it. Dry it. Make a tea with it!Sarah GambleKumiko's Course what the abdomen has to sayNewJun 29, 2021 1ReactBeen enjoying taking the Fuku shin Course with Kumiko. Reminded me of exceptions like when it is ok touse Fu Zi with Ban Xia together. (FuZi Geng Mi Tang).Wondering if anyone has other comparable bits that come to mind? Maybe we can start a short greatesthits of exceptions to the rule list?FuKu shin, is a diagnostic approach in itself but that offers added support to a pulse and tongue; A trifectaof sorts. Each area of the abdomen has a formula method attached. I am taken in by the simplicity of howthis can guide our diagnosis and direct us to an herbal formula. I find I must remind myself that we stillneed to stay broad to all the parts of our assessment just the same. It is incredible to have Kumiko’s course,and other White Pine offerings as to explore the intersection of knowledge accessible in one place. I amcurious if others are using Fuku shin on a regular basis, either having had the course before or new to thematerial, and how it is finding a place in your practice or if it is adding to how you choose formulas, or yourunderstanding from palpation or anything else?Suzanne ConnoleNewJul 05, 2021React
ReplyHi! I use the abdomen a lot. I am far from an expert but there are certain findings that really help me clarifywhen there is a bit of a mess of symptoms. General tone for a start really helps me get general parameterslike excess/deficiency and wet (squishy) and dry (hard and tight). Specific findings like the kidney area andthe hypochondriac area can be really formula family specific and give a starting place to a formula. Watersounds and specific hardness signs I am still working on recognizing and I look forward to some hands onworkshops in our future so really firm up my experiences! So basically even a little palpation can be helpfulin clarifying diagnosis! ReplyClaudia CitkovitzNewJul 31, 2021ReactThis is so helpful thank you both! I also have always been really generic in my abdominal palpation andlook forward to using this valuable tool more.Sarah GambleLong Covid ColdNewJul 06, 2021ReactLong Covid - not sure about this, but could the original onset of coldness of Covid linger?While listening to Teeny Tiny Formulas (TTF), my thoughts were drawn to a Covid patient case: patient withpersistent cold signs revealed in her P &T, a chest that feels like a heavy weight is compressing it, lungfunction that is reluctant to return to full functioning, and exhaustion (ie unable to increase evenincrementally her physical output).TTF gave me an understanding of several parts that applied directly. First, how Gan Cao Fu Zi supports fire,so it can regenerate earth, in so doing recovers yang. That, along with the ash conserving the fires energyand distributing it more efficiently. Also, the understanding that Gan Cao Gan Jiang attends to the earth andthe middle to melt any cold/freeze. Gan cao via its sprinkler effect allows moisture to nourish the lung. Theoverall concept of heat unlocking the obstruction of cold addressed my case.Besides delighting in that this all makes beautiful sense as well as the beauty of the independent and/orpaired components have such particular strengths I had a gut reaction.My gut said, “What if my patient never fully recovered from that initial cold attack from the Covid? If that ispossible, what kept the Cold from resolving, and what would help it now?”. Either way, if it is 'residual' coldor cold 'now', the theory will apply to treating the Cold. I realize I need to stay with the ‘now’ of what I amseeing, but I have to confess, while listening to the description of Earth and fire coordinating to restoreyang, my mind could visualize this patient’s lungs/chest inflate from relief. Would be a nice outcome, but Iwill shelve that while I stay on task in the present.
Does anyone else who works with a long term Covid population have similar cases especially addressingLung and/or Heart problems?ReplyCaroline RadiceNewJul 11, 2021 1ReactHi Sarah: I think you answer your own question but treat what you see is the mantra always!ReplySarah RivkinNewJul 14, 2021ReactI don't have a similar long-COVID case to present, but with cold, my question for myself is always: Are theyreally cold or is there a blockage that's preventing the yang from circulating (or I guess being generated)?Maybe that is relevant or helpful here?1 teacher remarkBrigette GouletClinical Applications of the FuxingjueNewJul 13, 2021ReactHi Sharon! I have been enjoying your talk and actually trying to study and understand this text. I havelistened to both of Sabine's talk: one on Qiological and the one on the History Train. Wow has this beengreat. I am on my second round of listening to your talk as it is more clinical. I have started to create notesand charts for myself. I am having a hard time seeing some of the charts in your talk and was wondering ifthe Wuxing herb chart is the same as the Su Wen 5, 22 and the 25 herbs of the Tang Ye Jing are the same?We have that chart available through the GMP. This is quite dense material although your presentationcertainly helps clarify it. After more study I certainly hope to have more questions or comments related tothis text. I really look forward to your next 2 presentations for more clarifications.Sharon WeizenbaumSharon Weizenbaum NewJul 13, 20211ReactThanks Brigette,
1 reply 14 more comments4ReplyFirst, no. The chart in the Fuxingjue is not quite like anything in the Neijing, though it comes close toChapter 22 of the Suwen. For me, Suwen 5 is really about resonances and is not talking about the clinicalapplication of flavors. That is in Suwen 22. Zhang Dachang says that he modeled his chart after Suwen 22but clearly he made changes. The third article in the Lantern will lay this out in a written form.ReplyBrigette GouletNewJul 13, 2021ReactLook forward to it!Candace JaniaFavorite Topical Formula BookNewJul 19, 2021ReactHi All-I’m having some trouble finding good information about topical herbal formulas. I have a few books butwould love to hear your favorite external formula book. Even better if it details extraction methods!Thanks in advance! ReplySuzanne ConnoleNewJul 20, 2021ReactThere's Tom Bisio's books for trauma and pain stuff with good directions to make them yourself. I have abook I bought in China ages ago that has all sorts of topical treatments. I'm in the process of unpackingnow so I can pass on the name to you. I've never seen it anywhere else but that doesn't mean you can'tfind it!Maryanne TravaglioneNewJul 21, 2021ReactI agree with Suzanne, Tooth from the Tigers Mouth by Tom Bisio is a good resource
10 more comments10 ReplyRebecca MangumFertility Formula and Herb substitution for E JiaoNewJul 28, 2021ReactHi Everyone,Glad to be here with all of you!Last year I took Sharon's class, the Shao Yin for Fertility and I am listening again because I have several newfertility patients I am working with currently. One of the patients is clearly showing a Wen Jing tangpresentation. She is a strict vegetarian who does not eat eggs due to her particular spiritual path, and I amwondering what I could replace for E Jiao in the formula? I was thinking to add Shu di huang and thus haveSi Wu Tang in the formula. Wondering if this would be a good replacement?I would also like to share more about the case here to see if there are any other herbals you wouldrecommend adding to the formula.Patient is 34 year old femaleBody type: 5'10", Very thin bodyFace is paleTongue: (Picture attached below) Swollen front and sides, shallow cracks in the center (not to tip), pale bodywith peachy red tip and sides, thin coatPulse: Overall - Thin and tightMain complaints:1. Fertility2. All over tiredness/heavy legs/pain in big joints (Achy joints)Sharon Weizenbaum
History of 4 miscarriages and one full term still birth.4th miscarriage was in May 2021. Patient lost a lot of blood with miscarriage and had a DNC.Patient is from Czech republic and is here for 3 months before returning back home.We are in Florida here and it is currently very hot. Patient gets headaches easily with air conditioning in caror inside buildings and feels cold easily. She is always wearing a scarf and hat, even to bed.Fatigue - More like tiredness most of the day (has not properly rested since miscarriage)Weak feeling and heaviness in legsDizziness upon standingLarge appetite/always finishes every meal/sometimes rapid hungerFormed stoolNot stickyCan sometimes move slow and not feel complete, harder stool during these times. Can happen after herperiod.Abdominal bloating and discomfortBled for 14 days (stopped 10 days ago day after treatment)1st menstrual cycle since the miscarriageTypically her cycles are 30 days in length with little to no cramping3-4 days of bleedingPoor night visionCramping of calf muscles in bed at nightLow back soreness/weakness (Horse accident years ago)Low libido (has been increasing with treatment)
1 teacher remarkCrave small amounts of liquid (little/no thirst)Thank you for your support.ReplySharon Weizenbaum NewJul 29, 2021ReactHi @Rebecca MangumYes, you can either leave out the E Jiao or, given the tendency to bloating and heavy legs, leave it out. Iwould suggest taking care with the dose of Wu Zhu Yu as well, keeping it quite small, given the headaches.Wen Jing Tang is very moistening so pay attention to the signs that seem to point to dampness. I am notsure I see the cold in your description of her but, with the weak legs, I do think her kidneys need support.Perhaps using a combination of Rou Gui and Gui Zhi, plus Xu Duan, Ba Ji Tian.Thanks for the tongue picture. That is quite a dip there and it looks purple. Does it to you?Rebecca MangumRebecca MangumNewAug 02, 2021React@Sharon Weizenbaum Thank you for your response.To clarify about the cold, she is commonly feeling cold in her body, even in sunny Florida. She is alwayswrapped up in a hat, scarf and sweater when coming to see me in the clinic. She will take off the hat andscarf after being outside for a bit in the 90 degree weather. She even sleeps with a hat and scarf with theair conditioning at 80. She has been improving with treatment and is not as sensitive to wind (hot or coldwind) nor as prone to headaches, as she was when she started and thinks her temperature has warmed upa little. Still wearing hats and scarves.I have been doing moxa on her back shu and bl 17/19 to build blood. She loves this treatment.Sharon Weizenbaum
She had also described what felt to her like energy leaking out of her vagina or root and since treatment,including warming the lower ren with moxa, she has described that the energy no longer feels like it isleaking out and feels more like it is circulating. She also reports having more sexual energy.Her leg weakness has also improved since I last posted.I took some more pictures of her tongue at her last appointment and was pleasantly surprised to see thatthe dip in the front had mostly filled in. The purple area in the first pictures I sent was due to thelighting/angle of the picture.I do see a lot of signs pointing to liver blood xu and qi stasis, kidney yang xu and sp qi xu with a little damp.(wei qi xu)Perhaps she is not showing a Wen ding tang presentation like I had thought...would you come at this froma different angle? I was thinking to consolidate her surface with Gui zhi tang and then thought a morecomplete approach with be with the wen ding tang modified...Thank you, Sharon.
3 more comments3 ReplyJPEG | 2.5 MHladiniJPEG | 2.4 Mhladini3JPEG | 2.2 Mhladini2Adam BroderChinese Herb Farms in USNewAug 01, 2021ReactI have some friends who are interested in growing medicinal herbs as a business and they’ve been pickingmy brain a bit. I know in the GMP we’ll be learning soon about the 40 herb pharmacy, so that can helpguide them as to what herbs to grow. Are there other farms in the US that do this? Does anyone know howviable this is as a business venture? Are there any people or resources to put them in touch with that mighthelp them get started? Thanks in advance for any input!Suzanne ConnoleNewAug 03, 2021 1ReactSally
2 more comments2ReplyHi. I'm tagging Sally here as she should be able to direct you. You can also get in touch with High FallsGardens for resources. There are growers out there for sure and a movement to create consortiums indifferent growing climates to consolidate resources for preparing, processing and distribution. It is m yunderstanding that there is a demand for locally grown herbs but there is still a lot of research to be doneon methods and also testing whether or not the herbs grown here have the same medicinal properties andstrength. So many of the active properties come from the "terroir" of certain regions that may or may notbe reproducable. I would love to see this movement really take off! ReplyMaryanne TravaglioneNewAug 04, 2021ReactAgree, High Falls Garden is an excellent resourceJoy BlaisEverything You Ever Wanted to Know About...Ginseng!NewAug 30, 2021 1ReactThanks to Eric Brand for the awesome lecture "Understanding Ginseng"! It was such a treat to hear aboutthe history, cultural significance, and cultivation of this herb. Beautiful photos too!Eric Brand
1 earlier comment 1 teacher remarkOzben Felekabout roundtable discussionJun 22, 2021ReactHi Sharon and Sally,I just finished listening to Round table discussion with Brandt. I was wondering if you look at from number5 lenses more so than 6, when you practice acupuncture?From what I understood about your point of views that for herbal medicine, using number 6 makes moresense or it is easier to see the motion and where the unbalance is but I am curious to know how youapproach the acupuncture considering the number 5.Thank you!Sharon Weizenbaum,SallySallyJun 25, 2021ReactOzben Felek,Sharon Weizenbaum
Reply@Ozben Felek @Sharon WeizenbaumHi Ozben, I have primarily used Saam acupuncture for the last few years, and it incorporates 5 and 6together which I love. I think even with other acupuncture I incorporate 5 and 6 as well. For example, if apatient walked in for acu with a clear Shao yang disorder i.e. chest tightness and queasiness with a cough, Iwill use points that will help open Shao yang channels in 6 but also points to clear heat open the chest anddescend the qi on airbus other channels. So i would treat the wind and fire associated with Shao yang aswell as stomach points to help descend. To me this seemed like 5 and 6 together when I used to do it.Perhaps in that talk we were too focused on differentiating 5 and 6, but I think they are always both there.In TCM herbal medicine, there is a misunderstanding of 6 because the motions through the circle are notincluded, so it is difficult to incorporate it into diagnosis and treatment. Once the dynamic of 6 isunderstood, I think it transforms one’s understanding of acupuncture and herbal medicine. I think what Imay have been getting at in the lecture, is that it is a bit easier to see movement in 5 via acupuncture whenyou consider the generating and controlling cycle during treatment; however, that still does notincorporate the dynamic connecting humans to the movements of the seasons as a manifestation of theheavens via the motions of yang in the invisible realm of 6. I hope that helps to clarify.ReplyOzben FelekJun 25, 2021Reactthank you both, it makes more sense! hopefully through GMP, we will see how to implement 5 and 6 withcase studies too!Christopher Carlowlooking for input on pulses - slippery vs wiry vs tightNewAug 23, 2021ReactHow would you describe the following pulse and whats your thoughts about my distinction which I do feelunclear about?Slippery vs Wiry vs Tight:Both slippery and wiry have to do with accumulating fluids but slippery contains heat that thickens fluidswhich will have a softer feeling than tight or wiry. Wiry is constrained fluids that make the pulse tube tightlike a wire. Perhaps wiry is a tightness from the inside out-pressure pushing outward trying to over fill thetube where as a tight pulse is a contracting from cold, from the outside in.
1 more comment1your thoughts???ReplySarah RivkinNewAug 24, 2021 | EditedReactI don’t think of wiry or tight as having to do with fluids. Can you say more about where this idea comesfrom?ReplyMaryanne TravaglioneNewAug 25, 2021ReactAccording to practical dictionary of Chinese Medicine Wiseman &Feng 1edxian main wiry associated with diseases of liver and gb, in particular ascendant hyperactivity of liver yang. Itis also associated with pain and phlegm- rheum patterns so your association needs to at base think of thefailure of free coursing that may result in the accumulation of fluids. a hua mai slippery pulse is seen with phlegm rheum patterns. Slippery is not heat pattern but rather one offullness (also seen in pregnancy, as extra blood is needed to nourish a growing fetus, it also can be seenwith younger healthy folks like athletes who have an abundance of Qi and blood) so jumping to heat ispassing through a healthy abundance.it is always good to remember he opposite of a hua Mai slippery pulse is a se Mai choppy or rough pulse.This pulse always indicates pathology of either blood stasis or a duel vacuity of Qi and Blood.While the theory you present is not incorrect in a specific clinical case that you might be considering , it isnot the primary mechanism associated with the pulses as discussed in LiZhi Shen (Lakeside masters pulsediagnosis.). I hope this is of help for thinking more broadly of the pulsesSage Staggs (she/her)Dang Gui Si Ni jia Wu Zhu Yu Sheng Jiang Tang- ProportionsNewSep 01, 2021ReactI'm curious to hear from teachers and more experienced practitioners how to know when to go with SHLproportions, and when to modify.Sharon Weizenbaum,Caroline Radice
I'd like to try DGSNjWZYSJT for a patient of mine, but when I looked at the amounts of wu zhu yu and shengjiang in the SHL, they look really high! I don't have a lot of experience working with wu zhu yu except in WenJing Tang, which I've been instructed (by Sharon and others) to reduce the amount.Here are the proportions:Dang Gui Si Ni jia Wu Zhu Yu Sheng Jiang Tang:dang gui 3 liang (9g)bai shao 3 liang (9g)zhi gan cao 2 liang (6g)tong cao 2 liang (6g)gu zhi 3 liang (9g)xi xin 3 liang (9g)sheng jiang 1/2 jin (24g)wu zhu yu 2 sheng (48g)da zao 25 piecesDo folks use the above proportions? If you reduce the amounts of wu zhu yu and sheng jiang, how do youcome up with an appropriate amount?Also, any insights into how much da zao to actually use when the formula calls for 12 or 25 pieces? Thatseems like an awful lot of da zao and I've heard it should usually be reduced- but how to know when andthe rational behind why? I mostly use granules so the pieces (vs weight) is extra confusing.I'd love to hear thoughts on the proportions of this formula and when and why we might modify theoriginal amounts.Claudia CitkovitzNewSep 03, 20211React
1 reply 11 reply 1ReplyHi Sage!Curious to know what the others will say, and also what leads you to want to use that particular formula.For sure I would reduce that WZY -- I don't think of the doses for a formula as fixed, but as guidelineproportions to adjust to the patient's situation.When dosing da zao in granules I just treat it like any other tonic, 10 grams if it's serving a real function (eggan mai da zao tang idea or harmonizing ying/wei), will cut back if it's just with sheng jiang harmonizing theflavor of the formula. ReplyCaroline RadiceNewSep 06, 2021 1ReactI agree the doses are higher than usual use especially for the last four. Wu Zhu Yu I typically use 3-9 gramsas it is very warm and kind of hard to tolerate the taste, Sheng Jiang 10-15 and Da Zao 10-20 depending onthe presentation is my standard.The Xi Xin conversation was a great one back a few months ago if you were able to see Andy Ellis's talk (Ithink there was also an ebook?). I stay conservative with that even in granules because of the inherent risksetc. so more like 1-3 g typically.Looking at my Mitchell Wiseman SHL translation p 64, they equate 1 liang to 15.625 g, 1 jin to 250 g, and 1sheng to 200 ml as the Han dynasty equivalents, so the doses would be the equivalent of Xi Xin 46 + g,sheng jiang 125 g, and wu zhu yu 100 ml or 3.5 oz (apparently they used this liquid measure for easy toscoop ingredients according to the text). Still quite high, and even higher at 3 liang for many of the otheringredients. Prep listed as boil in 6 sheng water + 6 sheng wine down to 5 sheng tea and divide into 5 parts.Molly ShapiroThoughts and questions from the Dang Gui Shao Yao San TalkNewSep 21, 2021ReactThank you so much, Suzanne, for this wonderful discussion based upon Dang Gui Shao Yao San. It wasclear and helpful in deepening my understanding of this pattern and formula.Suzanne Connole
When assessing blood stasis by the qualities of the menstrual blood, could we say that all of the followingwould be diagnosed as blood stasis in the womb and could show up in a DGSYS pattern depending on therelative proportions of damp and dryness: dark red blood, purple blood, brown blood, dry blood, clots inthe blood, pale watery blood with clots?This formula uses Chuan Xiong to harmonize the blood with Dang Gui. I have been using Dang Gui 9:ChuanXiong 3 pretty standard, but the discussion had me wonder when I might want to increase the Chuan Xiongrelative to Dang Gui. When a woman has the dry scaly skin on her lower legs like in Dr Huang Huang'sdysmenorrhea case that you presented, does that suggest using more Chuan Xiong to further move andharmonize the blood, or reduce Chuan Xiong to avoid scattering it too much and drying the blood further?Also, you seemed to emphasize that in this formula we are not using sticky sweet herbs like Sheng Di/ShuDi to tonify the blood. I understand the use of Dang gui, Bai Shao, and Chuan Xiong to tonify andharmonize the blood, but I'm curious to know why we don't use Sheng Di/Shu Di here? Is it because thespleen is deficient and it would be hard to digest the sticky sweet herb? Knowing which aspects of Si WuTang to use is something that comes up a lot for me in practice. Practitioners like yourself are very inspiringto hear, thank you.
Adam BroderLong COVID Case Abdominal ReleasesNewJul 11, 2021ReactHi Candace, I just got around to watching this video and I’m glad I finally did because it was an excellent presentation. I wanted towrite out the prescriptions for the abdominal releases and run them by you to see if I got them right.For left sided oketsu (ST26-27 region) needle LU5 and LR4, both on the left, in the direction of channel flow with qi sensationFor right sided oketsu (ST26-27) needle SP9 and SP5 , both on the right, in the direction of channel flow and the Master Naganopoint, also on the right, perpendicular to the skinIs this how you administer the treatment? Is it important to abide by the order of SP9 first and then SP5?Thanks in advance for your response.Candace JaniaReplyCandace JaniaJul 11, 20211ReactHi Adam-@Adam BroderYes, you got it! That is correct. Often you may need to put a few needles into master Nagano’s point and SP9 to get the release.When a good QI response is elicited, the reflex is likely released. I never really do it in any certain order. Hope that helps!Adam BroderCara FrankDoes huang qi clear heat?NewJun 11, 2021ReactOne of my students said that her teacher told her that Huang qi is a heat-clearing herb in high doses. I wasn't really sure how torespond. It's action for discharging pus is well known, but its for wounds or infections with a background of qi deficiency.Does anyone have an opinion, or experience using Huang qi to clear heat?Sharon Weizenbaum,Eran Even,Caroline Radice,Sally
2 more comments 2Thank you in advance!ReplyEran EvenNewJun 11, 2021 | Edited 1React@Cara FrankI’d love to hear her teachers source for this. Every Ben Cao and commentary considers Huang qi to be slightly warm and nevermention any heat clearing effect. Ye Tian Shi said that it is able to lift the qi of shaoyang, so maybe if ministerial fire is a bit stuckand you use Huang qi, it would look like heat has decreased? I mean, that’s a huge stretch!! Maybe he sees it in the context of LiDong Yuan and his Yin fire theory? Not sure, again, sources would be rad!Cara FrankReplyCara FrankNewJun 11, 2021ReactI'll ask her, but she may not even know- she's a new grad with zero clinical experience. But perhaps she can email her teacher.1 earlier comment 1 teacher remarkAdina KletzelQuestion on Kumiko Shirai's lecture on FukushinMay 27, 2021ReactQuestion for teacherI really enjoyed Kumiko Shirai’s lecture about Fukushin. I hope I can take her next class.I wanted to ask more about Kumiko’s teacher’s tradition to use the original Classical formulas without modifying them. This is sodifferent from the school of thought that the Classical formulas are meant to be modified.It does feel so much safer to use the formulas as Zhang zhong Jing presented them but it also feels right to be able to changethem to fit the presentation in front of us.I would love to hear more about the clinical results from using unmodified formulas and more about the thinking behind this.I would love to hear from other clinician’s experience on this subject.Eran EvenNewMay 27, 2021ReactHi Adina and Sharon, I can't speak too much to this as I also modify or combine formulas in clinic very often. When I say combineformulas though, I only mean that I'll add a couple herbs, which does end up giving me other formulas but I try to keep it asminimal as possible or only add herbs that make sense in accordance with the pattern, or if it is natural to add it (the herbs areused together in other formulas and not a weird combo).I think we lean towards modification as we don't always see a perfect fit, and therefore need to go with the flow. Here and therethough I'll get a perfect fit and I'll keep the formula as is without adjustments.
ReplyDr. Huang does give the original formula very often, and most of the pharmacies love him as his formulas are usually muchsmaller than the average TCM doc ;)At the end of the day I think it's so important that we understand the objective we're trying to achieve with our formulas and keepthem as elegant as possible. It's so common in modern TCM practice to write massive convoluted formulas that lack direction ormake sense. Keep it simple is always best :)ReplyClaudia CitkovitzNewJun 18, 2021ReactOne could think of Kampo as a 'not to be modified' school.Joy BlaisLong Haul Covid LectureNewMay 26, 2021ReactCandace, I just wanted to say how much I appreciated your case review for your long haul covid patient. It was so clear and wellorganized and I came away learning some new acupuncture point combinations. I will definitely try the Kiiko reflex treatments inclinic. I hope you teach more classes in the future!!Candace Jania ReplyCandace JaniaNewMay 28, 2021ReactThank you, Joy! I am so glad that you enjoyed it and please feel free to reach out if you even have any questions!Brigette GouletLong Haulers talkNewMay 24, 2021ReactThank you so much for this great talk Candace. I love how you just did your diagnosis and treated based on that. It's so helpful tosee this illustrated over and over again. I also really appreciated how you integrated various acupuncture styles. I have beenreluctant to take Toby's class as I don't think I would apply it exactly as it is taught. I would love the elemental training and to do itto increase my knowledge of classical acupuncture. You may just have inspired me! I appreciated how you shared your thoughtprocess and how you worked with the herbs. Overall very helpful and I look forward to re-watching it.Candace Jania ReplyCandace JaniaNewMay 24, 2021ReactHi Brigette-Thanks so much! I am glad that you were able to learn from the presentation. I do think you should take Toby's class. It is such anamazing style of acupuncture that can really benefit your practice, whether you use it alone (which I definitely would recommend!)or take elements of it and experiment!Thanks again!
2 teacher remarksJoy BlaisHow Gan Cao Works by William CeurvelsNewMay 17, 2021ReactQuestion for teacherWhat an insightful article on how Gan Cao drains fire indirectly through supplementing the Earth! I feel like I came away with adeeper understanding of how Gan Cao harmonizes by improving Spleen function to dispel stagnation in the middle (and possibledamp blockage) thus allowing Heart fire to descend.I especially appreciated the explanation of how Heart and Small Intestine interact. I have 2 questions:1) When I think about Shaoyin fire pivoting into us and descending with the help of Yangming, then getting into position with thehelp of Shaoyang, I have always visualized this fire needing to get stored in the lower jiao as ministerial fire before it can be usedto steam up from below to act on the middle and support the digestive process. I wonder if this is always the case, or if some ofthat emperor fire is used to help transform food and fluids on its descent as well? It may not be as controlled or as efficient, butdoes it contribute in this way? Is Yang always traveling to and interacting on Earth from both directions?I ask because of the statement “the Small Intestine is the storehouse of the Heart”. I understand this to mean that the Heart Yangcan travel directly down to the Small Intestine, where it interacts with water to create Qi & Blood which then gets dispersedthrough the vessels. Would this make Heart fire akin to cooking with a blowtorch from above and Kidney fire akin to cooking witha controlled gas stove from below? Basically, both can get the job done, but one is more nuanced and efficient?2) There was not really any mention of differentiating Spleen deficiency into Spleen Qi deficiency, Spleen Yin deficiency, and SpleenYang deficiency in regards to using Gan Cao. I always thought of Gan Cao as moistening and building up the middle, so thereforone should use caution when a patient has a lot of dampness in the Stomach. One quality of Gan Cao that was stressed though,was its ability to draw water away from the center and into the far reaching vessels & capillaries. This pumping action also servesto prevent stagnation of water in the middle & lower. So maybe I have been thinking about this wrong. Is Gan Cao appropriate touse regardless of whether there is a dry or damp Spleen? Is it Zhi Gan Cao that one should be careful with in cases of damp?Thanks very much!Sharon Weizenbaum NewJun 03, 2021ReactHi Joy, such great questions! Thank you.first, I want to comment on this part of what you wrote:"I feel like I came away with a deeper understanding of how Gan Cao harmonizes by improving Spleen function to dispel stagnation in themiddle (and possible damp blockage) thus allowing Heart fire to descend."Gosh, not me! I didn't relate to this at all from a clinical perspective. I see Gan Cao as generating damp earth and hence it often willincrease stasis in the middle. When I see blockage in the middle with heart fire accumulating due to not being able to descendJoy Blais
Replythrough the middle, I am always very cautious in my use of Gan Cao.For me, when the heart is afflicted by heat, it is either from full heat in the west or empty heat in the east. The first part of thisarticle feels confusing to me as these are not differentiated. Also, as you are pointing out, which direction is the fire moving? Is itgetting too hot because of blockage or lack of storage? It all seems very mushy to me. I like on page 29-30 how the author beginsto try to differentiate this.As for your questions:1. Would this make Heart fire akin to cooking with a blowtorch from above and Kidney fire akin to cooking with a controlledgas stove from below? No. I do not see that the imperial fire, on its way down, is doing physiological work in earth. For fire togenerate earth, it has to be divided into the two fires. It is not until it becomes ministerial fire that it can do work. In this articlethey are not differentiating the imperial fire of the heart into these two aspects.2. I don't think there is any way we can say that Gan Cao opens the middle or drains fluids away from the interior, thereby makinga pathway for accumulated fire to descend. There is nothing in his quotes to indicate that fluids are "diverted from the middle." Ingeneral Gan Cao induces the earth to absorb more water into the middle AND into the tiny tributaries throughout our earthyterrain.It's weird in his translations….He translates Huang Yuanyu as supporting this idea that Gan Cao "frees the vessels." But this is notwhat the Chinese says at all. It says that it banks up earth and nourishes or builds up wood Qi. He's trying to make a case for GanCao to be inherently discharging and freeing but I don't think it works.To me, Zhi Gan Cao should be differentiated from Gan Cao. I see Zhi Gan Cao as controlling empty fire as in Earth controllingWater. It helps hold Yang below by increasing Yin earth. The only way it can free things up is by nourishing so as to relax drytension, as in Shao Yao Gan Cao Tang. If there is heat built up due to this tension, Gan Cao is much better as the honey willstagnate more. Gan Cao frees by filling up dry waterways. Dry waterways cause muscles and flesh to be tense, hypertonic, ,"urgent."I would not buy the ideas that "Gan Cao works by reducing accumulation and stagnation of water evil, allowing for heart Yang todescend and interpenetrate the middle and lower burners unobstructed." This idea will get you into trouble!!Another thought. Often symptoms like palpitations, anxiety, insomnia are seen only as heat agitation. If we observe more carefullywe can see that very often they are due to fluid or Yang deficiency or both. In this case we use Gan Cao with Gui Zhi. If this works,one might think it is because Gan Cao is reducing fire but this would not be correct.any thoughts Joy? @Joy BlaisJoy BlaisNewJun 03, 2021ReactSharon,I appreciate you taking the time to really flush out the ideas he has presented and why you disagree. What you’re saying doesmake sense to me and also explains why my 2nd question came forward after reading the article. Going back to re-read it I findthat my head starts to spin a bit. Reading how he interprets other’s work as confused and how you interpret his work as confused,has me sort of feeling...well, confused myself!The author’s explanation of the functioning of Gan Cao in regards to diverting fluids away from the middle into the far reachingvessels & capillaries sounded good (especially in a Western sense & how it affects blood volume & blood pressure). I had neverconsidered this idea before!However, as you pointed out “Gan Cao induces the earth to absorb more water into the middle AND into the tiny tributariesthroughout our earthy terrain.” Yes, moistening the middle was how I always thought of it and is how it actually feels when I takeit. If I drink too much of it, I always feels kind of gunky in my stomach and the sweetness starts to feel sickening. This stands incontrast to his idea that it drains water away from the center. So, my experience also discredits the idea that Gan Cao can drainflaring fire indirectly this way (by eliminating dampness in the middle).Sharon Weizenbaum
1 more comment1ReplyIt’s a good reminder for me to think more critically when reading. I get so starry eyed about new ideas sometimes!Adina KletzelGe gen constitution, conditions, and cases questionMay 09, 2021ReactIn examining the qualities of the constitutional body type for ge gen some of them make sense give the properties of ge gen andsome of them are more difficult to see how they are associated with ge gen. For example, a stiff neck and back, a heavy head,dizziness, and thick skin relate to the qualities of ge gen to absorb fluids and bring them to the muscles, raise clear yang, and bringfluids all the way out to the surface of the body.The qualities of having a heavy and cumbersome body, a lazy appearance, being overweight, and having a sallow and darkcomplexion are more difficult to understand given what we know about ge gen.I would love to know how ge gen relates to these qualities. I would also like to know if I am correct in assuming that theconstitutional body type for a specific herb is derived directly from the healing properties of that herb.Eran EvenEran EvenMay 09, 2021React@Adina KletzelHi Adina, thanks so much for the great question. Yes, the first symptoms and signs you mentioned are the ones most typicallyassociated with Ge Gen, and make sense right away. The other ones, not as much for sure. According to Professor Huang, theterm "Hypertonic nape and back" from the SHL can mean much more than just headaches with pain and stiffness of the nape. Hesees it as shorthand for things like; muscle pain with spasms in the head and back, sometimes even extending to the lower back,accompanied by headache, dizziness, or even just generalised heaviness. I think the idea of heaviness here, is not exactly like thetype associated with an accumulation of water-dampness, where patients will tell you they feel cumbersome, and their limbs areheavy. Sometimes, patients that get dizzy or suffer from chronic headaches, will say their head and lower body feels heavy, theyfeel uncoordinated, and feel as if they may fall over anytime. This is the type of heaviness I feel matches the Gegen type.Over the years, Huang has found that certain body types and constitutions present in ways that require certain formulas, and thisis where his concept of formula presentations came from. However, he is not the first to discuss this, and he himself says he isfollowing in the footsteps and continuing the work of his own heroes such as, Xu Ling-Tai, Cao Ying-Fu, Ke Yun-Bo, TodoYoshimasu, etc., who also extensively discussed formula presentations. This and the specific functions of some herbs alsodetermine the constitutional body type, but not always.Hope that helps, but please let me know if you'd like more clarification.EranAdina Kletzel
ReplyReplyAdina KletzelNewMay 24, 20211React@Eran EvenTHanks so much. The way you explained it makes much more sense.Eran Even1 teacher remarkSage Staggs (she/her)Substitutions for Yi Tang?May 03, 2021ReactQuestion for teacherI'm curious what other folks use in place of yi tang when prescribing Xiao Jian Zhong Tang. I use granules and haven't been able tocome by it in granule form. I have suggested that patients add honey to the formula in place of yi tang, but I'm not sure if this hasthe appropriate energy. Does anyone know where to source yi tang granules or have thoughts on replacing it?Thanks! ReplyEran EvenMay 08, 2021ReactHi @Sage Staggs , the most common substitute for Yi Tang is Maiya. Many practitioners in China do this, including my teacherHuang Huang. I have also been doing this for many years. I wrote my dissertation on Xiao Jian Zhong Tang and went into somedetail on this substitution in the paper, and it makes the most sense for many reasons. If you do want to use the Yitang, you canalways ask your patients to pick up some Barley Malt (available in most health food stores), and add it to their formula (whichwould essentially just be Gui Zhi Jia Shao Yao Tang).Hope that helps,EranSage Staggs (she/her)ReplyCara FrankNewJun 11, 2021React@Eran Even Huang has even said- just use honey. He seems pretty relaxed about itEran Even
2 more replies 26 more comments2ReplyEran EvenNewJun 11, 2021 1React@Cara Frank he has in the past, but it’s not that common anymore. Now he’ll just either use Maiyatang (Yitang) straight up, orMaiya in almost all cases. For my dissertation on this formula, I analyzed 467 cases between 2010-2018, and this is what he did inall of them. That’s the thing with HH, he’s always evolving and refining his methods. :)Cara Frank1 replyAmyTranslated textsApr 26, 2021ReactHello, not sure where to post this, and feeling sheepish, but I don't know what translation of the HuangDiNeiJing to get. Not allcontain both Su Wen and Ling Shu, it seems. I see online the Unschuld translation, is that one to start with? I have just theMaoshing Ni version.Also, a favorite translation for the Nan Jing?Thank you.ReplyEran EvenApr 26, 20211ReactHi @Amy Rieselman, Unschuld’s texts are your best bet, as there’s nothing to the same level of scholarship out there in English.The Suwen and Lingshu would have to be bought separate but they are all worth the cost of admission. His Nanjing is also the onlyedition worth getting. Just the footnotes in these texts alone are worth it. In addition, Sabine Wilms has done a beautiful job withchapter 5 of the Neijing. Her text is called Humming with Elephants and is also worth owning. Hope that helps. EranAmyReplyAmyApr 26, 2021ReactEran, I'm so grateful for this input, thank you!!
Adina KletzelQuestions on Chai hu gui zhi gan jiang tang (presented by Guy Sedan)NewApr 25, 2021ReactI really enjoyed Guy's presentation on Chai hu gui zhi gan jiang tang. I thought he explained it so clearly and I loved the animatedslides. I have a couple of questions on the formula.In the chai hu gui zhi gan jiang pattern there is a cold spleen and heat in the stomach. The gan jiang warms the spleen and the tianhua fen clears heat from the stomach. I have found that differentiating the symptoms between a cold spleen and heat in thestomach to be challenging. The concept of someone with a cold spleen who you would think should crave warm fluids wantingcold fluids because of heat in the stomach seems so paradoxical. Can you please help me understand how these two can coexistand how the hot gan jiang doesn’t aggravate the heat in the stomach and how the cool tian hua fen doesn’t weaken the coldspleen?Also you mentioned that hardness in the epigastric area shows weakness in the spleen but doesn’t hardness in the epigastric areaspecifically show a weak and dry spleen?Guy SedanReplyCarrie TanenbaumNewApr 25, 2021 1ReactThese are great questions. I also look forward to hearing the responses.ReplyGuy SedanNewApr 29, 2021 | EditedReact@Adina Kletzel, @Carrie Tanenbaum, @Emma Mezher Hi Adina, The concept of someone with a cold spleen who you would think should crave warm fluids wanting cold fluids because ofheat in the stomach seems so paradoxical Yes it is paradoxical! This what makes this pattern sometimes difficult to grasp. Yet, when we read through the SHL, we can see alot of times paradoxical symptoms like thirst without the desire to drink and so on. If we understand the underlying pathologythan the paradox makes sense. Can you please help me understand how these two can coexist and how the hot gan jiang doesn’t aggravate the heat in thestomach and how the cool tian hua fen doesn’t weaken the cold spleen? Two points to consider: 1. Gan Jiang main influence is on the Spleen and less and the stomach. Tian Hua fen main influence is on the stomach and less onthe spleen so each herb focuses on a different aspect of a different organ/channel and therefor the treatment can workoutwithout aggravating the other organs. If Sheng Jiang was used instead of Gan Jiang, that would create more of a problem as ShengJiang influence is more on the stomach and therefor you would be using two herbs (sheng jiang and Tai Hua Fen) that home to thesame organ/channel (i.e. the stomach).2. Sometime herb pairs which seem contradicting can work together creating a new treatment method addressing theintermingling of heat and cold. Another example of this is Gan Jiang and Huang Lian appearing in the Xie Xin Tang formulas. Therewe also have heat and cold intermingling. Sharon often mentions that we can think of this pair of herbs when cooked together asa new "herb" which can treat these opposing patterns.Also you mentioned that hardness in the epigastric area shows weakness in the spleen but doesn’t hardness in the epigastricarea specifically show a weak and dry spleen? Yes it does. I mentioned in the presentation that the hardness points to a dry weak spleen. This is the pattern we see both in XCHTand CHGZGJT. In XCHT, Ren Shen, Da Zao and Zhi Gan Cao all treat the dry Spleen. In CHGZGJT , ZGC is the only herb that treat thisdryness, as we also have some sticky phlegm so we can't overuse stick warm herbs such as Ren Shen and Da Zao.Carrie Tanenbaum,Adina Kletzel,Emma Mezher
2 teacher remarks3 more comments 3Emma Mezher dang gui and BRCANewApr 21, 2021 | EditedReactI know there are lots of studies and questions around the relationship between dang gui and breast cancer. Because I am unsureof the validity of this concern, I err on the side of caution and don't use it for patients who have a history of BRCA. I was curiousabout some other perspectives and also what might be a good substitute...specifically in a formula like Si Wu Tang. I'm trying tomake a formula for a genetic skin rash that has a blood deficiency component.ReplySharon Weizenbaum NewJun 03, 2021ReactHi Emma,Sorry I missed this post. I am going to tag some friends too because this is an important question. @Sally Rappeport @CarolineRadice @Eran Even @Claudia CitkovitzPretty much, I don't evaluate my herb choices based on research like this. The reason for this is that, from a CM point of view, theillness is related to a global imbalance and health will come from restoring that imbalance. Even in WM, time and again, they seesomething like high cholesterol and they say "don't eat things with cholesterol in them, like eggs", as if eating it is the cause ofthere being an over abundance of it in your blood. Later it is seen that this was way too simplistic and that the increased level inthe blood was due to a metabolic imbalance, i.e. a more global imbalance. Eggs became okay again and saturated animal fats areon their way to getting off of the "bad" list too and even moving into "very good."So, for me, if a patient needs Dang Gui I will use it. In general, if patients want to control what I do because of their westernmedical research on the web, I don't work with them. Of course, if they prefer I not use one herb and it's easy to avoid it, that isfine but for me, either they want to do and trust CM so we can work, or they don't and it's better they then don't do it. I am curiouswhat others have to say.Eran Even,Claudia Citkovitz,Caroline Radice,SallyReplyEran EvenNewJun 03, 2021ReactI feel exactly the same way Sharon does, and couldn’t have put it any better. I tell patients that we’re always working to restoretheir physiology and if a certain herb that they’re worried about is in the formula required, we’re still gonna use it but we’ll monitora little closer for anything that would warrant a change. Same goes for things like Gancao with blood pressure, and others on the‘WM hot list’. Adina KletzelDr. Huang Huang on Tian Hua FenNewApr 19, 2021ReactDr. Huang Huang’s video on Tian hua fen stressed the fact that strong thirst is a strong symptom of the need for tian hua fen. Hesaid that he feels that tian hua fen is a very good herb for diabetics and that it lowers blood sugar.I am learning that when Dr. Huang Huang says this he is not saying to use tian hua fen for all patients with diabetes but ratherthose that display symptoms of dispersion thirst. Tian hua fen will help the body absorb more of the fluids being ingested and this
1 teacher remarkwill moisten up the dry digestive system which will then help nourish the blood and lower blood sugar.Dr. Huang Huang also says that tian hua fen is good for pussy sores and acne and that it could be put directly on the sores. Iassume that tian hua fen helps absorb up the fluids from the pussy sores and this helps them heal.Does anyone have direct experience with using Tian hua fen for this healing pussy sores? Would one just mix tian hua fen withsome water and put it on the sore? Is it affective? ReplySharon Weizenbaum NewApr 19, 2021ReactTian hua fen will help the body absorb more of the fluids being ingested and this will moisten up the dry digestive systemwhich will then help nourish the blood and lower blood sugar.Hi Adina, I would not conclude that the reason the blood sugar goes down is because the blood has been nourished by fluids.Where does this come from? Are you sure this is the mechanism?I assume that tian hua fen helps absorb up the fluids from the pussy sores and this helps them heal.It is also cool so that may be part of it.
2 earlier commentsThom HeilCHJLGMLTOct 04, 20211ReactThank you for the fabulous class, Caroline. My most successful application of CHJLGMLT was with a patient who had a downcast,depressed affect. She had all of the other parts of the syndrome you discussed in your presentation but not the chattiness/maniathat you described. When I saw the closed off affect, I thought of Chai Hu and landed on CHJLGMLT, which helped her to open up alot and get unstuck in her body and her life. I later learned that her affect would change when she was at home in the evening,when she would regularly become angry and yell at her boyfriend. So there was the breakthrough upsurge that was missing whenshe was in my office. It had always been part of her presentation -- I just hadn't seen it first hand. Treatment helped her regulateher emotions, and she and her boyfriend were both happier.Having so much success with CHJLGMLT in that case, I was looking for a downcast affect in patients to use it again and completelymissed using the formula for a recent patient of mine. Watching your presentation, I was completely reminded of this secondpatient because she had the entire syndrome this time, including the talkative/strange speech while she was in my office. Iavoided CHJLGMLT specifically because of her very open demeanor since I didn't want to open it up even further, and mytreatments were not successful. If she comes back, I'll definitely reconsider using CHJLGMLT.So I've learned two lessons today:-- I have to consider herbs in combination when I considering formulas. "Chai Hu will disinhibit her affect too much" is insufficientthinking. "Chai Hu will open her ribside and digestion, while Long Gu and Mu Li will downbear her talkative qi" is closer to themark.-- Patients with different looking presentations will sometimes require the same formula because they will not express thesyndrome in the same way. I won't always see every sign/symptom that it "typical" of the syndrome. Or the sign/symptom mightbe invisible to me for the moment.Thanks again. This really helped me clarify my thinking about an important formula.Caroline RadiceReplyAnni EllistonNewOct 22, 2021ReactFun note - I have seen a client for 10 years, primarily with acupuncture. I recently suggested herbs and we started with Ben TunTang. Then, after this lecture I wanted to try her on CHJLGMLT. She came back with "no changes" reported, but out of the blue shementioned wanting to find a relationship for the first time EVER. I thought this was a very interesting possible manifestation of heropening up, either to myself or to the possibility of love again.ReplyMargaret SikowitzNewOct 28, 2021 1ReactThe lecture was great and agree w/all above, I am seeing more patients who fit the pattern with my newfound clarity here!
1 reply 1Ann ClearyDan Ba solutionNewJan 13ReactHi Andy,I have been going through Sharon's ebook on fuzi and I see where you say that some suppliers (including the one that suppliesClassical Pearls) use a Dan Ba solution on the fu zi that is not great for humans, and hard to wash off. What IS dan ba solution? Iwasn't able to find the answer with Google.Andy EllisReplyMaryanne TravaglioneJan 19ReactI believe this is a weakened wash… not certain but putting it out for comment ReplyMaryanne TravaglioneNewJan 19ReactQuantification and Simplified Detoxification Investigation on Fuzi, Root of AconitumcarmichaeliiShow all authorsYun-Chien Lai*, Chi-Jung Tai*, Mohamed El-Shazly, ...this is the study that I found that referenced this procesCaroline RadiceVaginal SuppositoriesNov 18, 2021ReactHi all: I am continuing the search for a good supplier of herbal vaginal suppositories. I used Earth's Botanical Harvest for yearshappily but they went out of business as far as I can tell since pandemic times. They had different cocoa butter based products forcandida, dysplasia, dryness of menopause etc. and I cannot find another good supplier anywhere.Maybe somebody knows a smaller herb maker that does this? We hosted Lorraine Wilcox at this year's Shen Nong SocietyConference, but it was about making them which I don't possibly have the time to do.Please let me know if you know where I can source something like this if you have any experience with this. Many thanks !Suzanne ConnoleMarnae ErgilNewNov 19, 2021 | Edited3React
ReplyPhiona Gitsham at BioHerboloqi is beginning to make some suppositories. She already makes Dewy Fruit which is a vaginal"moisturizer" and good for vaginal dryness/pain during intercourse. It is designed to be used just prior to intercourse, but I havehad patients use it more frequently and found it helpful. Extra Bonus: She will be speaking at Shen Nong Society in 2022!(Correction: Other than Dewy Fruit she does not have any other suppositories available right now, but I understand that she isworking on some and is also very open to requests.https://cultivatemyhealth.com/bioherboloqi/ReplySuzanne ConnoleNewNov 19, 20212ReactSeriously Caroline, I need to make this my business! But so hard. the problem I have seen is packaging and shipping is so hard.Wise Women herbals used to make some and they seem to have discontinued them. What we need is to design kits that patientscould mix up at home thus alleviating the shipping problem! If you help me write the formulas, maybe this is a plan.Anyway, I just bought some Calendula ones from VaYa Botanicals for a patient with internal hemorroid issues. These could beused for appropriate vaginal conditions as well. Calendula is bitter, sweet, acid and neutral in temperature which makes it fairlybalanced. Clears damp-heat, reduces swelling and inflammation, invigorates the blood, and promotes healing/tissue repair. I havenot received feedback yetJoy BlaisCurious about using Ma Huang with patients...Nov 17, 2021ReactHi All,I was wondering how you approach using Ma Huang in clinic. My understanding is that the FDA has only outlawed its use in"weight loss supplements", but that there may be additional regulations regarding its use by location.https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/ephedra-sinica#legalitySo I have 2 questions:1) Does anyone know where there is a website or other way to get information regarding Ma Huang's legality per state?2) How do you personally approach using Ma Huang in clinic? Do you tell your patient that the formula contains Ma Huang or justput it in and not mention it? Are you nervous about using it with new patients or patients that you don't have a good rapport with?Thanks for your comments :)
13 earlier comments 6Ephedra (Ma Huang): Weight Loss, Dangers, and Legal StatusEphedra gained popularity as a weight loss supplement in the 1990s, but safety concerns arose. This article reviews ephedra’s weight loss effects, potential dangers, and legal status.Source: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/ephedra-sinica Embedded File.https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/ephedra-sinica#legality ReplyElaineNewMay 18 1ReactHi All, thank you for your insights. I was able to order from aliherbs (which I think was Jade Mountain Herbs before) but now Icannot find them. Do you all have a different source for granules? Thanks, ElaineAndie XuNewMay 18ReactThank you all for contributing to this topic. It is very informative to read everyone's take on it! I wonder if any one has a source forMa Huang either raw herb or granules, as a single herb?Just tried Ali herb, their website is not really there as of now...On another note, an herbalist friend mentioned Mormon tea, which looks very similar to the Ma huang plant. The pharmaceuticalname for ma huang is Ephedrae herba, and for mormon tea is Ephedra nevadensis. So it seems that they are in the same family.How similar are they in terms of Chinese herbal medicine energetics? I have not found much reliable writing on this, wouldappreciate any insight on this...
ReplyThank you for reading! 1 reply 11 more comment1Anni EllistonDGSYS & urinationNewNov 05, 2021ReactHello!My understanding of DGSYS is that the FL, BZ, ZX are there to help the pathogenic fluids (dampness) get harmonized back into theblood to become physiological fluids. So what is happening when taking it promotes excessive urination / incontinence? On theone hand it makes sense in terms of maybe it is flushing out some of the excess dampness to promote healing, and that's theexplanation I've given, but on the other hand I don't want my elder client to be leaking and peeing on and on! She stoppedformula after 4 days and is awaiting my instructions whether to continue or whether we modify it...I can provide more info on this particular case too, in case I've missed something, but if there's an easy explantion or adaptationfor this I'm curious to hear that too!Thank you!Suzanne ConnoleReplySharon YeungNewNov 08, 20211ReactI would need to know more about this case to determine the cause of the excessive urination/incontinence. If DGSYS is causingthese symptoms to the point of incontinence, it could be cold yin fluids accumulating in the lower jiao and perhaps this patientneeds a more warming formula than this one to integrate fluids and blood. I wouldn't think of DGSYS as 'flushing out' in anyextreme manner, but more like offering an outlet for excess water accumulation such as edema which gets trapped in the flesh.Some of those fluids should also harmonize back into the blood as well.ReplySuzanne ConnoleNewNov 09, 20211ReactI guess I think of these herbs as sending fluids where they need to go. If there is actually too much fluid then they could act asdiuretic. If the problem is really just that the fluids are in the wrong place then I do not see much of that diuretic action at all justimproved usage of water or distribution of water. a little more info might help us help you. Agreed, if cold is a problem modifyingthis fomrula to warm and transform can be helpful. I often add gui zhi or rou gui for this action thinking of the dui yao of gui zhiand fuling to activate the movement of water.I also find that modifying DGSYS with huang qi helps when the water is in the tissues/flesh as huang qi bring the water up andinwards. so depending on what your patient's pattern is this might also be helpful.
1 earlier commentJoy BlaisA chat with Andy Ellis about Shi Gao Granular DosingNov 02, 2021 | Edited2ReactI recently spoke with Andy Ellis on the topic of shi gao granule dosing and wanted to share what I learned. First and foremost,Andy plans on teaching a WPC class in January on herbal preparation and use that should be very enlightening. He is just a wealthof information on the subject and very accessible to anyone wanting to learn.My shi gao question was in regards to how one should dose it in granulars. Since the herb itself is dense & hard, decocting inwater only extracts so much of the active components, but when it is pulverized into a powder or taken as a granular we areactually ingesting the mineral itself with greater surface area of the herb available for absorption. How do we determine howstrong the concentration is and how digestible and bioavailable it is when taken this way?The answer, it turns out, is quite complicated and is one thing that Andy had planned to address in his class. He explained to methat there are different processes for preparation depending on whether the herb is sourced in Mainland China or Taiwan.Binders such as maltodextrin (China) and starch (Taiwan) are usually added as well which can slightly distort the ingredient ratio.Then, there is the issue of proper labeling (indicating whether the herb is just powdered or actually a legit concentrated granule).Unfortunately, not all companies are accurately making this distinction on the bottle, and sales associates are not always aware ofthe type of processing used.Without getting into all the detail that I discussed with Andy, the take away for me was that if you are using an unconcentratedpowdered herb (which may or may not be labeled as a granule by different sources), you can more or less use the same amountas you would in a decoction, although you should be mindful that minerals can be hard to digest. If you are using a concentrate,you need to find out the extraction ration used by your source. This can be different than the concentration ratio of typicalgranules. Instead of the usual 5:1, it could be 10:1 or 30:1. Without knowing this ratio, you can’t really accurately dose the product.I hope this is helpful info for others! I am going to tag Andy in this post so he can correct any misunderstandings ormisrepresentations that I may have inadvertently made.Sharon Weizenbaum,Joanne Tait,Andy EllisReplyJoy BlaisNov 03, 2021ReactThanks for the clarification Andy!ReplyMaryanne TravaglioneNewDec 01, 2021ReactLooking forward to the class!Andie XuSourcing of Zhu li Nov 01, 2021 | Edited 1ReactHello Dear WPC members and teachers,Thank you Sharon for the very informative Ebook on pre-eclampsia and eclampsia.
1 earlier comment1 more comment1In the Ebook, Zhu li was mentioned a few times as a crucial herb for phlegm clearing. I've also seen it in some Lung heat phlegmtype formulas. Traditionally, it is made by heating the 3 foot long bamboo on open fire and collecting the juice dripped from bothends.Does anyone know if any supplier has this herb? I checked with Kamwo and KPC, none of them have it.Another thought is to sub zhu li with zhu ru? These two herbs are used rather differently in formulas...I'd appreciate any input/thoughts. Thanks in advance!Andie ReplyAndie XuNewNov 02, 2021ReactMarnae, thank you for your thoughts. I'm part of WPC, not in the GMP. ReplyAndy EllisNewNov 16, 20212ReactHi Fangding,In China there are a few places where you can purchase Zhu Li. It is sold in glass viles which are added to decoction just beforedrinking (the Zhu Li liquid is added to the decoction, not the glass vile). I don't know of anyone who sells it in the US. The commonsubstitute is Tian Zhu Huang. One should be careful in purchasing that herb as it comes in natural and synthetic forms. The best isthe natural Tian Zhu Huang, but it is considerably more expensive than the synthetic herb.You can make your own Zhu Li yourself as well. I refer you to page 20 and 21 in Dr. Yu's book, A Walk Along the River II for detailsabout how to prepare Zhu Li and also how to substitute Tian Zhu Huang. I will also reveal here for the first time that I am PhisicianE in this chapter of the book. The case is an interesting one where phlegm is the major pathogen and Dr. Yu's use of Zhu Li is oneto keep in mind.Emily RieffelShi Liu PiOct 23, 2021 | EditedReactQuestion for teacherA family member has a bumper crop of pomegranates that we are seeding for juice and jelly. Has anyone prepared their own Shiliu pi by simply drying the husks on a dehydrator or similar? I’m wondering if there is a specific variety of pomegranate for Shi LiuPi, or if any edible pomegranate will be fine? Thanks in advance!
8 earlier comments 2 1 teacher remarkJPEG | 2.5 Mimage ReplyAnn ClearyNewJan 131ReactSo cool, Emily. Just for fun I thought I'd share that my Persian friend told me that the peel is widely understood in Iran to be "goodfor the prostate". ReplyEmily RieffelNewJan 13 1ReactVery interesting! I wonder if the astringent property consolidates urination?4 replies 4JenniferGround raw herb thermos methodNewOct 20, 20211ReactHi all - apologies for continuing the conversation on this topic as I know there is a lot that has been discussed already, but I amexperimenting with this method for myself at the moment and have a few questions. I've been adding the total dose of 1 raw pack, dividing it by 7, then adding that amount of herb to 1 1/2 cups boiling water in athermos the night before and letting them steep overnight.1. After I've strained the herbs off the next morning there is inevitably some dregs at the bottom of the cup after I've drunk theliquid. If these were granules I'd instruct to consume them, but these being ground raw herbs should I work to consume these,too?2. For "add at the end" herbs like Da Huang and Jing Jie, is there a separate way to add these? Could add in the morning for a final15 minutes? Or....is adding them the night before appropriate, but if in the case of Da Huang if I wanted to use it more for clearingheat rather than it's purgative function would I do an additional cook time (say boiling for 20 minutes in a separate vessel) beforeadding it to the other herbs the night before. ? Thanks in advance! Very excited about this method.-JenReplySage Staggs (she/her)NewOct 22, 2021ReactHi @Jennifer Black. I don’t know much about the thermos method, but I just saw @Brian Wah asking about it in another forum andthought maybe @Eran Even could shed some light on things?Eran Even,Jennifer,Brian WahErin AlexanderNewOct 27, 2021React
2 replies 215 more comments 15Reply@Eran Even I was wondering what you do when you have a formula that has sheng jiang in it. Do you have patients add it inthemselves when they go to steep the formula overnight?Eran EvenJoy BlaisJADE MOUNTAIN IS BACK!NewOct 12, 20212ReactFor anyone that used to order hard to find herbs from Jade Mountain, they have just rebranded & launched their new website.They are now called "Ali Herbs". https://aliherbs.com/Ali HerbsWe are a company with the goal of providing direct access to top quality herbal products to Chinese medicine practitioners.Source: https://aliherbs.com/ Embedded File.https://aliherbs.com/Sarah RivkinJade Mountain resurrected as Ali-Herbs?NewOct 12, 20211ReactRemember how we the loss of Jade Mountain, especially as a source of ma huang? I just received an email from Ali-Herbs sayingthey are the re-branded version of the same company. Has anyone used them yet?Amy JennerNewOct 28, 2021ReactI ordered some ma huang, and it shipped... according to email. Impossible to track once it leaves taiwan. I can let you know if itshows up. Jade used to be super surprisingly quick. This must be on slower boat or it is sitting in LA
6 more comments 6ReplyReplySallyNewOct 29, 2021ReactI ordered Ma huang also! Same as Amy...shipped but no other signs. They don't have Xixin...Sarah RivkinHerbs and intermittent fastingNewOct 12, 2021ReactHello, all,I have a patient who practices intermittent fasting--both by skipping whole days of eating and, even on the days she does eat, onlydoing so within a narrow window. (I'm not sure if IF is so great for her, but that's another discussion ... ) She drinks black coffeeeven on fast days (oy!), so initially we'd done herbs every day, too. I then switched to having her take herbs only at the times shewas eating. I think just taking herbs at times when she was also eating food yielded better outcomes, but the advantage was fairlysubtle.Do other folks have experience here? IF is so common these days, I'd love to her how others navigate it with herbs.Thanks in advance for your thoughts,SarahAnn ClearyNewOct 13, 20211ReactHi! I have had a different patient experience that may not shed light on your situation. I had a patient who began intermittentfasting. At about 3 weeks in I had thought that if there is no change when I see her next, I will advise she reconsider this idea, asshe has low thyroid. The next week when I saw her, her appetite had improved, she had started to shed weight and gain energy.She attributed this to taking her herbs within her eating window, whereas before she was taking them before bed. I attributed thisto my growing skills as an herbalist, because I had given her something to clear her glomus now that I knew how to spot one (ibelieve it was bxxxt) but I also couldn’t rule out that maybe it just takes that long for someone to notice a difference from fasting.My patient’s eating window was standard, I believe 6 hours is the usual?And then unrelated to your patient but related to your wondering if it’s even a good idea in the first place, I have had personalexperience fasting under a mentor. I believe his approach comes out of a Daoist tradition (I am assuming that because of his otherDoaist practices.) Dr. Kim would suggest fasting to most of his students, and his method was to skip an entire day, eventuallyworking up to 3 days a week, eating every other. He told us that if we were really struggling on a fast day to eat half a date. It wasinteresting to see the affects on all the different body types that followed his guidance. For example, I worked my way up to 2 daysa week and fasted for about 9 months. I am skinny through no efforts of my own, and with the 2 days fasting I lost 3 lbs and nevermore. More corpulent people lost more. I noticed with fasting that I was much better at regulating my energy. Initially it was verydifficult, but after 3 or 4 times I preferred to fast on the days I was busy as it was easier not to miss eating for fun (hunger was nota problem after the routine was established). I also drank black coffee, haha, but that is certainly not what I was guided to do!
ReplyI had always dismissed my mentor’s explanation that initially feeling poorly while fasting was because you are eliminating toxins asmetaphorical and inaccurate. Later I stumbled upon a study in Pubmed that explained how environmental toxins are stored inadipose tissue and as that tissue is consumed there is another pass at eliminating it, and what isn’t eliminated is stored again. Likeplenty of other times, I realized that traditional diets/ habits know something I didn’t.It was an interesting experience and I would repeat it again once I am squarely out of the tail end of my reproductive years. Butwith all that said, I would certainly not recommend it wholesale. Anyone who has histories of an eating disorder should be wary ofcontrolling their diet to this extent. I would also not advise it for folks who are too interested in eating “clean” or overly zealousabout having the “perfect” diet, however they define it. And of course, anyone actively trying to get pregnant needs lots of goodhealthy fat. Though I think it could have a role for a younger person hoping to get pregnant in the near to distant future.And then, just for fun, Upton Sinclair published a monograph called The Fasting Cure in the 1800s. It’s a slim little thing full ofstories of who he recommended a fast to, what they did, and what it helped. It’s a fun read to because of the particulars about thediet and lifestyle then.ReplyMargaret SikowitzNewOct 14, 2021ReactUpton Sinclair was a maverick, so interesting. I think there can be value in occassional pauses eating, days of fasts, or alteredintake hours to bring us into better balance with our intake, etc. As for the timing of herbs with fasting, much harder to navigate inthose full day fasts, (just coffee!), but I usually advise to take prior to first intake in their eating window.Ann ClearySuzanne Connole’s DGSYS talkNewOct 07, 2021 | EditedReactI was just able to watch the dgsys talk a few days ago, and despite thinking I already understood this formula, I learned a lot. Theidea that the water coming out of the blood could be other things than water trapped in the body clarified my thinking. Also, I’veseen teachers use zi su geng for pregnant women and just chalked it up to another calm fetus herb in a sea of calm fetus herbs.The comparison to and distinction between zsg and chai hu was very useful.I have a couple of questions. In the case study on the ovarian cysts, you take the time to say that these are not endometriomas.This makes me think that you would do or not do something very specific if the cysts were endometriomas. Is there more youcould say?Also, the distinction between herbs that guide to the ovaries versus those that guide to the uterus was new to me. Is it that theseherbs go to both the liver and the stomach instead of just the liver? I’m trying to understand why these guide more to the ovariesthan say, xiang fu or other herbs that go to the liver channel. Also, do you take into account the hormone like nature of lu lu tong?I’m thinking of a post menopausal woman, or say and endometrioma that would be affected by hormones. I suspect that youranswer would be that you prescribe according to your Chinese medical diagnosis, not pharmacological properties, but I stillwanted to ask. :)Thanks.Suzanne ConnoleSarah RivkinNewOct 12, 2021ReactSuzanne Connole
1 reply 11 more comment1ReplyWasn't it a great talk!? @Suzanne Connole and others might have other thoughts on this, but I suspect the differentiation betweenherbs for uterus versus ovaries has been deduced from seeing how doctors have used herbs historically. I would also think aboutthe location of the ovaries versus the uterus and which channels traverse them, which herbs go to those channels. ReplyMargaret SikowitzNewOct 14, 2021 1ReactSuzanne's DGSYS presentation goes offline at the end of the month, get it while you can!https://whitepineinstitute.instructure.com/courses/230/pages/dang-gui-shao-yao-san-reintegrating-blood-and-water Embedded File.https://whitepineinstitute.instructure.com/courses/230/pages/dang-gui-shao-yao-san-reintegrating-blood-and-water
Fang CaiMore Powdered Pharmacy inside scoopNewJul 253ReactI had a long conversation with the folks at Spring Wind about transitioning over to a San pharmacy. they had very useful things tosay about the grinding process as well as things to watch for when purchasing herb powders. here is our communication, readtop-down. I am stoked that Spring Wind is so responsive, and is creating herbal products around our needs.Hello,I just had a very informative conversation with Sydnie there, who was super helpful in getting me started figuring out somequestions I have about converting our bulk herb into a powdered bulk herb pharmacy.I learned about powdering herbs from Eran Even’s lecture on White Pine Circle, and the WPC forum has quite a buzz around thetopic. So I’m asking both for myself and many other practitioners who are converting to powdered herb pharmacies.There are some herbs that are sticky and would be difficult to grind ourselves. I could make do by first dehydrating the herbs in anoven, then grinding, but this is a list of herbs that would make my life easier if they could be bought as powders, exactly like howSheng Di Powder is available through Spring Wind:Da zao - hei and hongGou qi ziLong yan youMai men dongIf you were to make powders available, an important question I have is around their quality control. Sydnie helped me understandsome issues around heavy metals already; my concern is around knowing if the Powders have been cut with any fillers, esp wheat,soy, corn - the things people have most sensitivities to. Knowing that the powders are free of those would offer me and mypatients peace of mind.Thanks for taking time to read this. I look forward to a response when you are able.All best,Eran Even
_________________________ Fang Cai, L.Ac.Hello Fang,Thanks for reaching out. I am very sorry for the late reply.That is an interesting topic. I have talked with Andy and he mentioned that he discussed with Eran about this as well. I assume you are referring to the usage ofSans?Yes, I am happy to let you know that we will be carrying more powdered herbs very soon as well as some tea-cut herbs. Note that all our powdered herbs will befree of any fillers, only the dehydrated herb itself. Andy recommends using tea-cut herbs more instead of powders, mostly due to some heavy metals in herbpowders (depending on the herb) but also due to ease of use, less clumping issues, better quality, less chance of contamination, longer shelf-life, etc. We usethe name tea cut but it basically means cut and sifted to 1mm-3mm size. It is the general size that is good for a tea-bag, so we call it tea cut or tea bag cut.Out of the herbs you listed, we now have tea-cut hong zao which we will be putting on the website soon. For the others you listed, we will look into adding themas powder or tea-cut by the end of the year or the coming year. Thanks for your suggestions.Note that according to Andy some of our fine-cut Premium or Organic herbs that we have now will also work for the San method, like the fine-cut sheng di andshou di, sheng ma, qiang huo, sang ye, and several others (these are just from the top of my head)Thanks! Let me know if you have any other questions.Warm regards,Jesse EllisSpring Wind Herbs, Inc.Eran EvenNewJul 261React@Fang Cai hey Fang, this is great!I did speak to Andy a few weeks ago for an hour or so on the phone and we talked about potential issues and concerns withpowders.He mentioned he was supportive of this venture and so was going to make an effort to bring in more tea/fine cut varieties. Thesecan be used exactly the same way as they’ll be super fine cuts and so we don’t have to worry about some of the powders makingtheir way through the strainers and into our patients bellies. We never recommend they eat the powders, so this will be a great way to use them and not have to grind our own. Now if itweren’t such a pain to get Spring Wind in Canada, I’d be all over it.thanks so much! EranFang Cai
Reply1 more comment1Jeannie BianchiDr. Yu Guo Jin's Acne FormulaNewJul 14ReactHello all,I wanted to see if anyone can confirm the herbs and dosages from Dr. Yu's lecture on acne. Did anyone else watch & get the wholeformula down? The display where they wrote the formula wasn't visible in the video, so I got it from the audio.Xiang Ge Feng Sui Dan (dosages in raw amounts)Xiang fu 30gGe Gen 30 gYin Yang huo 30gBai zhi 15gDan shenWu zhu yuIf the pt’s complexion looks grimy add Tu Fu Ling 30g, Bai Xian pi 15gLesions red with lots of pus–add 30 g Bai hua she she caoThank you!ReplyJeannie BianchiNewJul 14ReactI just re-listened and heard that it also contains Sha ren, Gan Cao and Huang bai. Didn't pick up his dosages on theseReplyNicole ManiezNewJul 18ReactI would also love to see the written formulas from this talk, along with their dosages. In the future- it would be great to have thehand outs connected to the resource.Polina Shneydermanlooking for herbalist in AmsterdamNewJul 5ReactQuestion for teacherHello everyone,
1 reply 1Looking for an herbalist in Amsterdam. My patient just moved there and needs help regulating cycles, controlling ovarian cysts.This will be long term care as she got off hormonal birth control and had two emergency surgeries to remove ovarian cysts. Shewants to regulate her cycles without resorting to more hormonal treatments. Any leads are appreciated.ReplyMaryanne TravaglioneNewJul 6ReactShe might find help at Shenzhou University located in Amsterdamshenzhou.com1 reply 1Sylvie PereraTongue helpNewJun 19ReactHi there,I'd be grateful for some insights into this tongue.I know it's not in focus at parts but it's curious because that it even seems like that in person.JPEG | 666.1 KAJ Tongue2021JunJPEG | 961.8 KAJ Tongue2021 ReplySharon YeungNewJun 24 1ReactWhat is most striking to me about the tongue is that is crimped and has very dark petechiae. If you're in the GMP, Sharondifferentiates between a puffy vs a crimped tongue in Joy's case study. A crimped tongue tells us of liver stagnation and thepetachiae is also due to heat from Lv constraint. It is red at the tip too. But the darkness of the red petechia and even of the tipseems to indicate that constraint has been part of this patient's picture for some time. The tongue is also pale and tender lookingto me so indicates blood deficiency as well.Sharon Yeung NewJun 27ReactThe photo is a bit blurry but the coat looks wet to me. It's a thin white coat which does indicate dampness and it's location will bedependent on the rest of the intake. Sometimes you see very clear signs of dampness but if you don't, you can see how the rest ofthe diagnosis might be able to explain why fluids are not being fully processed.
1 reply 1 Reply1 reply 12 more comments2Fang CaiPowdered Herb pharmacy - any mold concerns?NewJun 81ReactEran's lecture was SO AWESOME! I too am hopping on the bandwagon of transforming our pharmacy from granule to powdered.Thanks to all who have posted their experience in WPC - I've learned so much.One question that I haven't seen addressed has to do with mold growth on the herbs. I'm planning on grinding individual herbsand storing them in glass containers. My current grinding space is in my not air-conditioned shed here in NC, where for half theyear it's quite humid. My herbs (before and after grinding) will be stored in climate-controlled spaces.Has anyone ever encountered mold issues with the ground powders picking up moisture and then growing mold while stored inthe glass jars? Or can you please share your insights if you've thought through this issue?thanks!Sharon Weizenbaum,Melissa Roxas,Eran EvenReplyEran EvenNewJun 81React@Fang Cai , thanks so much for the comment, I’m happy you enjoyed the talk :)This is a good question, and one that should have been brought up as I have thought about it. It has not been an issue for me inthe years that I’ve been doing this, but one way I’ve avoided the excess moisture is by putting desiccant packs in each of the jars.The herbs don’t dry out excessively this way as the oils seem to be intact, and they never clump up but they seem to control themoisture perfectly. I think this would be a good option for you and I have recommended it to many people. I was able to buy a pack of 500 or so packs (way too many) for quite cheap through a local company - Uline (which I believe is alsoin the states). hope that helps. EranFang CaiReplyFang CaiNewJun 8React@Eran Even that is a great idea. All of your WPC talks have been fantastic. thanks so much for sharing your deep knowledge!Eran Even
Adina KletzelRaw herb pharmacyNewMar 27ReactHI,I would like to add a small raw herb pharmacy to my existing granule pharmacy and I could use help understanding how Imeasure out the raw herbs and how to cook them.If I would prescribe 10 grams of a certain herb in granules so do I measure out 10 grams of the raw herb as well?If I would give 5 grams twice a day of granules so how much would I prescribe a day in raw herbs?And how do I measure out how many herbs to cook with how much water?In essence, I do not know much about working with raw herbs and I would love some guidance. THank-you so very much.ReplyCaroline RadiceNewMar 272ReactHi Adina: The formulas listed in books are in raw herb doses if Tang, so use those as your guide. Granules (depending onmanufacturer and herb) are usually 5:1 concentration, but some are 1:1 so you need to check. This means a Raw formula thatuses 10 g Gui Zhi would use 2 g in granules to be equivalent.Cooking also varies quite a bit as some formulas like tonics need to be cooked longer and some need less time. It also adds in thecomplication of needing to cook first toxic herbs like Fu Zi and minerals, as well as add later certain ones for whom a longer cookwould reduce the intended medical effect, e.g., Bo He, Da Huang, Gou Teng etc. and some herbs don't get cooked, like E Jiao.Water for decoctions was always taught to me as "cover the herbs by 1-2 " water and soak 1 hour" before boiling. Often for astandard formula, this will mean cooking 5-6 cups down to 2 cups or so and boiling a second time with less water. Dosing also canvary so that the 4 cups tea you might get from one bag herbs may be 1/2-1 cup 1-3 x day, depending on what you're trying to dowith the formula, constitution of the patient etc.Although it is much more time consuming, it is actually less expensive overall and can be used in diabetics without as muchconcern. You will need a lot of space for storage and be mindful of the herbs that need refrigeration so they don't mold or gorancid, not to mention critters! I also wrap tiny herbs so they don't make a mess like powders or Tu Si Zi I heat seal in tea bags.There is a lot to consider! Maybe we should do a class on this but I'm sure you can find something on youtube.I love working with raw herbs and have only 50 or so in stock and it seems to work!Emma Mezher BXXXTNewMar 14ReactEran Even
2 teacher remarks3 replies 3Do I need to be concerned about the ban xia in BXXXT in a patient with thirst? I am wondering if the ren shen in the formula helpsto balance out the drying qualities of ban xia? Are there other ways to modify it in this case? This patient has a chronic hiatalhernia, and when her digestion stops working, she gets terrible migraines. BXXXT and sometimes SJXXT have been very helpful. Tomitigate the drying qualities, I have been having her take it preventatively when she feels her digestion is affected.ReplyEran EvenNewMar 14 2React@Emma MezherHi Emma, great question. If I am using BXXXT (or any of the XXT formulas) and there is thirst, I don't modify as I see the thirst asyang being stuck in the upper body and not descending into Yangming, which requires the downward movement of theseformulas. The thirst is just a byproduct of the stuck yang heat and I don't think there has been too much drying out of fluids yetwhich would require subbing out the Banxia. Makes sense she'd be getting migraines with this presentation.Once the proper physiological movement is restored, the thirst will abate. Plus with the Renshen in there, as you said, the dryingnature of Banxia is reduced.Hope that makes sense,EranEmma MezherReplySuzanne ConnoleNewMar 20 1ReactHi Emma. I agree with Eren's answer's above. I find that I will often need the formula for some time to set things right in a chroniccondition. Then do a maintenance formula for a month of so, it can be a smaller dose, or once a day dosage to support thedigestive process. Often I find then that if i give the patient the BXXXT variation to have on hand in case they over-indulge orsomething, they can mange any flareups quite well with just a couple days.Sage Staggs (she/her)Question about Powdered Herbal MethodNewMar 7ReactHi!I just asked about accessing Eran's talk in the Technical Support Forum, but in the meantime I'd love some info on this method as Ijust received a batch of powdered herbs in the mail (FYI you can order powdered custom formulas from Zi Zai Dermatology'sonline dispensary).I seem to remember you put 15g powder in a 16oz thermos with hot water and leave overnight, strain and drink in 2 doses thenext day. Is that correct? Am I missing any steps?Thank you!Eran Even
Online Herbal Dispensary — Zi Zai DermatologySource: https://www.zizaidermatology.com/online-herbal-dispensary Embedded File.https://www.zizaidermatology.com/online-herbal-dispensaryEran Even NewMar 71ReactHi @Sage Staggs I saw that you tagged me in the other question, but I can't seem to access that page. Nonetheless, not sure if youwatched the talk or not, but I mentioned that for many classical formulas that were originally prescribed as powders, I use them intheir original dosages which were around 5g per day. Tiny! Based on these ratios, I typically use around 8-10g of the formula daily.I have the patient steep the herbs in a thermos with around 1 1/4 cups of water and have them steep overnight. Next day theystrain, divide and enjoy!Again, not sure if you watched the talk so I didn't want to repeat myself too much if you did, but if you didn't and have morequestions, please feel free to ask away.Sage Staggs (she/her)
2 replies 2ReplyEranAmyMazin's Diploma program for a midwesternerFeb 22 | EditedReactI hope someone sees this! I am considering his program, but coming from the midwest (Chicago) it is definitely a big committmentand wondering who is here in the midwest has completed the program, and uses an online pharmacy to fill the raw prescriptions,as I don't have and probably won't get one in my clinic. I know of just one person Olivia Hsu Freidman I think. Plus, this would beexpanding my herbal practice which is currently Dr Tian lineage SHL-JGYL only. So wondering if others have experience using 2different systems of herbal medicine and if they compliment and are easy to manage both. I feel like this system wouldcompliment what I do now...Thanks! ReplyMaryanne TravaglioneFeb 23 1ReactI am in awe of the amazing Mazin herbal practitioners. In my opinion, more knowledge in herbs makes for smarter prescribingReplyCaroline RadiceFeb 251ReactHi Amy: Having done the GMP and Mazin's Program, I would say they are very different but you will find them each useful indifferent situations. Mazin is Wen Bing based and uses some very different herbs (read: not necessarily classic SHL only) but onesyou will have learned in basic TCM herbal training. There are much larger formulas with huge doses in many cases, so dependingon from where you are dispensing, it can get quite $$. I almost always order his formulas as I only stock about 50 raw herbs andMazin uses raw exclusively. I have found his topical preparations immensely useful also for many derm conditions so that is abonus as you can buy these domestically from a few places and he is constantly making new ones. He is a very gifted practitionerand teacher and I can't recommend him enough if you treat Derm patients at all, and he has also included some modules at theend on inflammatory bowel diseases and allergic/asthmatic and rheumatological diseases.It is a big investment for not just the program, but also you will need to fly and stay for each of the modules as he only does inperson historically and I believe the next rotation is only on the coasts. Please LMK if you have any further questions! I don't knowa lot of practitioners in the Mid West who have studied with him, so you could be very much in demand !Polina Shneydermanhelp with a symptomFeb 18ReactQuestion for teacherI have a new patient who is perimenopausal and has issues with sleep and constipation. We are having a discussion on addingherbs to her acupuncture treatments, but she is not yet ready for that. I think I will convince her eventually,My question is about this particular symptom:
1. when she eats, she feel really warm everywhere, she describes it as an unpleasant sensation, but no sweating2. if she does not eat/ is hungry, she feels cold in the middle and chills in extremities.Anybody heard/dealt with anything like that? Is that a Ying/Wei disharmony? Feeling stumped!ReplyMaryanne TravaglioneFeb 23ReactThere is not enough information on this case to answer this question. The few signs presented is not enough to help evaluate thedisharmony. I would suggest a start would be to look at the responses for your classical 10 questions, and it is important toinclude a tongue, pulse and abdominal palpation findings; a more complete presentation would help to distinguish the diagnosisand better guide your treatment strategy.Sarah RivkinEran's powdered herb methodJan 31ReactHi Eran,Thanks again for sharing your powdered formula method with us a couple weeks ago. I'm looking forward to experimenting with itin my practice!Question: Have you used this method for herbs to be taken by enema? If so, any particular considerations?Eran EvenReplySuzanne ConnoleFeb 7ReactInteresting question! Looking forward to the answer. Also anyone else want to chime in about their experiences with the methodwould be helpful for all. It is not logistically practical for my practice now so I haven't tried it.ReplyMaryanne TravaglioneFeb 16ReactIn the past I have successfully used enemas for only two pediatric patients with night terrors.Joy BlaisBen Tun Tang vs Chai Hu Long Gu Mu Li TangNewJan 28 | EditedReactQuestion for teacherDoes anyone have advice for how to differentiate between choosing Ben Tun Tang vs Chai Hu Long Gu Mu Li Tang for a patientwith running piglet due to Shaoyang dysfunction? I have a robust middle aged male patient who gets panic attacks with heatrushing up to the head, dizziness, chest pressure, muscle spasms in the neck & upper back, rib side tension, intense fear,insomnia, sweating, & cold hands & feet. Putting ice on the back of his neck will quickly stop the panic attack. He also has chronicfluid damage in the stomach (peeled patch on the center of the tongue), hx of stomach pain & acid regurgitation in the mouth nowcontrolled with medication.Eran Even,Suzanne Connole,Caroline Radice,Guy Sedan,Marnae Ergil,Thom Heil,Laura Mcgraw ,Cara Frank,Sally
2 replies 21 reply 16 more comments6Is BBT used when there is more blood xu & CHLGMLT when there is more water accumulation below? Also, if the patient feels finebetween attacks (they have specific triggers from a childhood trauma & may only occur once a year or less), would you use thisformula only when the symptoms start to come on & then discontinue shortly afterwards? Thanks for your help!ReplyCaroline RadiceNewJan 281ReactHi Joy: Great question! They both will treat inappropriate upsurge and yang out of R/R as this patient presents. BTT is definitelymore in the blood and focuses more upper/middle where as CHLGMLT doesn't have any blood regulating ingredients and alsoopens the yang ming. Do you see any s/sx in tongue or pulse or other that suggest crappy blood? ReplySallyNewJan 281ReactI think of BTT as a formula for rushing upas as in yourcase: when there are alot of SY signs accompanied by rushing up ending inthe head. CHjLGMLT is more of a formula for dream-disturbed sleep. I use it often for people with addiction issues and/oragitation with stress that disrupts their life. I think of the FL and GZ in CHjLGMLT as helping to digest the LG/ML, not because thereis alot ofdamp. Occasionally damp is part of the picture, i.e. the tongue coat has a small thicker patch. Does your patient still have thepeeled tongue coat with the medication? That might be the other thing to focus on when he's not traumatized.BTT definitely involves the blood but there could also be cold fluids in the stomach or lungs that are rushing up since there is ahigh dose of Sheng Jiang and Sang bai pi. Also, with BTT, I think that the rushing up sensation ends with a brick wall in the neck,skull or head. The high dose of GG is needed to open the upper body and the neck or head.